Live chat: I hate golf

2007-08-20 12:59:43.0 Administrator: Hi there everyone.

2007-08-20 13:00:28.0 Administrator: We will be starting the chat in a couple of minutes. In the room with us are Paul Lieberman and David Dilworth so please send us your questions!

2007-08-20 13:01:07.0 Paul Lieberman: David, it stirked me that more emotions come into play when a golf course is proposed for a sensitive piece of land than if houses, say, are proposed. Why is that?

2007-08-20 13:01:14.0 David Dilworth: Hi Paul

2007-08-20 13:02:23.0 David Dilworth: I’m not sure I’d agree. Around here if anyone proposes killing trees

2007-08-20 13:02:40.0 David Dilworth: everyone comes out of the woodwork (oops).

2007-08-20 13:02:56.0 Tim Hermach: Dave, you realize of course that your “victory” is temporary and that you may wish to prepare yourself for even more work ahead. Your adversaries have nearly unlimited energy & resources, just adding a zero to a check to their PAC or PR firm to defeat you and the commissioners who voted your way?

2007-08-20 13:03:49.0 David Dilworth: That’s why I call it a battle victory rather than a win at a war.

2007-08-20 13:04:08.0 dubby: My question for David. What can be done to educate a sports and entertainment obsessed public about the need to conserve wildlife habitat, let alone - how do we instill a sense of wonder and empathy for wildlife - feathered, finned, furred or fungal?

2007-08-20 13:05:18.0 David Dilworth: Get them out in the woods. I;ve taken thousand of people for walks in the forest

2007-08-20 13:05:33.0 Tim Hermach: Paul, does it concern you that most of the nation has been impacted, developed, logged & deforested without any sort of inventory accounting for the living life-support system (nature) that we have lost?. Talk about a failure of conservatism or by those who think money is the only true God.

2007-08-20 13:05:44.0 David Dilworth: and only one didn’t like it. Most grew to love it.

2007-08-20 13:06:00.0 dubby: Ahh yes... We are all suffering from nature defecit disorder.

2007-08-20 13:06:10.0 Paul Lieberman: Yet I’ve noticed that there are vocal complaints in particular about fertilizers used by golf courses in heavy golf areas, say the Hamptons, where the US Golf Assn. instituted a program to reduce their use. At the same time, the experts told me that the large house there use far more when combined, but don’t draw the same outrage.

2007-08-20 13:06:47.0 David Dilworth: Good phrase there “dubby”. I also like the “ feathered, finned, furred or fungal”

2007-08-20 13:06:55.0 Marcia Hanscom: I read the story yesterday, with great interest. I was troubled by the fact that the author of the story was not honest about his bias in reporting upon the first (or even subsequent?) encounters.

2007-08-20 13:07:36.0 David Dilworth: Hi Marcia,

2007-08-20 13:07:59.0 David Dilworth: It didn’t bother me. I just take as education of the media.

2007-08-20 13:08:14.0 David Dilworth: It doesn’t matter to me whether they are golf lovers or not.

2007-08-20 13:08:23.0 Paul Lieberman: To answer Tim--of course. In fact, the vigorous review process that the propsal for a new course at Pebble Beach underwent was a healthy thing. Of course, we can’t casually sanction the removal of 17,000 trees.

2007-08-20 13:09:02.0 Marcia Hanscom: But is it accepted practice for reporters to do this?

2007-08-20 13:09:59.0 David Dilworth: Whether it is accepted practice or not - I take it as a law of physics.

2007-08-20 13:10:13.0 Paul Lieberman: As for Marcia, David Dilworth is a very bright man and I do believe he sensed VERY EARLY that I was one of those...golfers...In fact, I pretty quickly was trying to draw him to the dark side.

2007-08-20 13:10:36.0 David Dilworth: Few reporters tell me the aim of their story. Paul get me to trust him and I feel it was

2007-08-20 13:10:41.0 David Dilworth: a good judgement.

2007-08-20 13:11:09.0 dubby: I also would like to know what both author’s know about sustainable golf course design and managment - might there be some day where we find middle ground? This book may be of interest to you both: Sustainable Golf Courses: A Guide to Environmental Stewardship ISBN 978-0-471-46547-8

2007-08-20 13:12:34.0 David Dilworth: Thank you for the reference. I believe a golf course in San Francisco is trying to go pesticide free.

2007-08-20 13:13:23.0 David Dilworth: But when a golf course destroys native habitat - it doesn’t matter how few pesticides they use.

2007-08-20 13:13:36.0 Paul Lieberman: Dubby, I have noticed that when golf courses try to be “sensitive” about such matters they still are viewed suspiciously by critics. As I mentioned above, there is a campaign by the Unithed States Golf Assn. to work with course superintendents to reduce the use of pesiticdes, for instance. I wish more would do that, but even when they do, some critics think it’s for PR purposes only.

2007-08-20 13:14:16.0 David Dilworth: I should have written “when a golf course destroys IMPERILED native habitat”

2007-08-20 13:14:34.0 Marcia Hanscom: I don’t consider golfers “the dark side” - however, upon further education and enlightenment, maybe they might take up other pursuits? As for the golf courses and the poisons applied to them, I was involved with helping to get many of the poisonous substances removed from an illegally constructed golf course by billionaire Jerry Perenchio. I was surprised, and so were colleagues from Heal the Bay who worked with me on this, at how many different things are applied, even to a very small golf course. Some of these substances are critically harmful to frogs and other marine life, such as was found in an adjacent lagoon to this illegal course. The thing that made THIS golf course SUSTAINABLE is that we got the poisons removed and an agreement for Mr. Perenchio to turn over his golf course land to California State Parks upon the death of himself and his wife. Cheaper than the fines he would have gotten charged by a judge.

2007-08-20 13:15:34.0 David Dilworth: Good one Marcia! Congradulations

2007-08-20 13:16:08.0 Tim Hermach: Paul, I think you did a good story but only as far as you went for as usual there was much about the conflict but other than the 17,000 trees little about the substance and reasons for the conflict. Why is that so rarely made a part of the story for the purpose of illuminating the issue and informing the public?

2007-08-20 13:16:41.0 Paul Lieberman: In fact, I mention in the piece almost getting into a fight with a wildlife photographer in Jackson Hole who was a classic golf hater. What set him off was my mentioning a program at a newrby course in which high school kids put bird houses around the links. He thought that was totally phony.

2007-08-20 13:17:05.0 David Dilworth: My quick research shows that many golf courses around here use about 1,000 pounds of pesticides a year and about 7-10 times that mass in fertilizers.

2007-08-20 13:17:40.0 Tim Hermach: Paul, fertilizers are only one of the problems, trashing nature, using up limited water supplies for recreation for the elite, not that a little of that is all bad, but that the world is being trashed, plundered and desecrated for false “profits”

2007-08-20 13:17:48.0 Marcia Hanscom: And what about the HERBICIDES and FUNGICIDES? Those are even worse, in some cases.

2007-08-20 13:18:27.0 Paul Lieberman: Tim, the Pebble Beach dispute was, as you suggest, very complicated -- indeed not merely about a golf course and 17,000 trees.

2007-08-20 13:19:18.0 David Dilworth: Pesticides is the general name for poisons intened to kill some form of life. That includes herbicides, insecticides, fungficides, avicides and rodenticides.

2007-08-20 13:19:33.0 Daniela: I wanted to thank Paul for his interesting article on David’s work. I wonder if David could elaborate on how important Monterey Pines are as ecosystems and how many intact Monterey Pine forests are left in the world?

2007-08-20 13:20:32.0 David Dilworth: I am preparing an article about the contrast between whaty EPA does test for when it registers a pesticides and far more importantly - what it does not test for.

2007-08-20 13:20:34.0 Paul Lieberman: And Marcia, are those not used in large concentrations on home lawns? Two golf driving ranges near my home have just been closed to make room for housing. Do you think those will be b etter for the environment. Certainly they are uglier than what were expanses of green.

2007-08-20 13:21:24.0 dubby: I am more interested in the sustainable design of courses - which first and foremost deals with siting the course. I would suspect that if you are dozing endangered species (like the orchid and red legged frog) no matter how you design or maintain the course.

2007-08-20 13:21:35.0 dubby: Tim - did you ever get to see the rain orchid or a red legged frog? Why is yet another golf course on the peninsula more important?

2007-08-20 13:22:02.0 dubby: Excuse me... that question was for Paul.

2007-08-20 13:22:15.0 Chrissy: Well isn’t it a bit rough to see ‘all that green’ unless you fork over the hefty greens fees?

2007-08-20 13:22:28.0 David Dilworth: Thank you Daniela. Native Monterey pines are limiited to a few thousand acres on the central coast of California. There are only 3 areas, Monterey, and two tiny areas near Santa Cruz and one south of Big Sur.

2007-08-20 13:22:48.0 Marcia Hanscom: Paul - You mention bird boxes on golf course, which MIGHT bring us closer to seeing some common ground. Here in Los Angeles, I’m a member of a Sierra Club Committee (Los Angeles River Committee) which is attempting to bring back Bluebirds to Los Angeles. Until we get the Mayor to realize the million trees he needs to focus on are WILLOWS along the Rivers, then one of the best places to place bluebird boxes (which imitate the now practically extinct woodpeckers, whose holes are secondary nest cavities for the bluebirds) are golf courses and parks with large, green lawns. This is ONLY an in-between educational measure, while people are educated about Woodpeckers and Willows, but in the meantime, the golf courses are helpful.

2007-08-20 13:23:39.0 David Dilworth: There are two tiny islands off Mexico that are home to a two-needle variant of Monterey pine, but you can count the number of trees there in the few hundreds.

2007-08-20 13:24:08.0 Paul Lieberman: Ah, the emotions come out, Chrissy. I was talking about two driving ranges where the Average Joe can come out and hit a buicket of balls for $7. Yes, there is Pebble Beach costing nearly $500 a round...there’s also a course near Cooperstown NY that advertises 18 holes, a cart and lunch for...$18!

2007-08-20 13:24:28.0 Chrissy: I’ve been a golfer since I was a child....but I’m bothered by taking something as beautiful as the Monterey peninsula and excluding it’s use to overpriced greens fees (they charged me $20 to ride there many years ago when I was pregnant).

2007-08-20 13:24:48.0 David Dilworth: The United Nations declared Monterey pines endangered in 1986 and the California Native Plant Society came to the same conclusion in 1992

2007-08-20 13:26:57.0 Paul Lieberman: Marcia, that’s fascinating...as is the irony of certain spots on golf courses proving to be great breeding grounds for the endangered red-legged frog! I mentioned one in SF that had to close a hole or two during breeding season. But certainly, the Pebble Beach developers would have had to swerve their new course around areas where they were found.

2007-08-20 13:27:26.0 Marcia Hanscom: Yes, the golf courses are great for Bluebirds, as opposed to more housing, which seem to be at a limit for. LOTS of housing developments. Not so many Bluebirds. As for the lawns, let’s think about Butterfly gardens and native plants.

2007-08-20 13:27:47.0 dubby: Right and it is important to share that these forests are teeming with life. From the mushrooms to the mule deer, red legged frogs to the rushes and sedges that have coevolved for millenia. We aren’t just losing the trees here folks, we’re losing a forest.

2007-08-20 13:28:37.0 Chrissy: So we can’t see the forest for the trees?......sorry

2007-08-20 13:28:45.0 David Dilworth: The problem Pebble Beach Co. has it that the 41 lots of records they want to develope all contain impereiled Monterey pine forest. Sine it is all in the Coastal Zone - it is protected from being subdivided or for bulldozing a golf course.

2007-08-20 13:29:08.0 Tim Hermach: Paul, I may be far more radical than David as I believe we have used up too much of nature and must stop. Save and defend what’s left of nature and humanity may be able to survive on this Earth. Otherwise we will go the way of the Dodo. That means no more sprawl, no more logging, no more mining or drilling, no additional water taken, etc.. $500 per round golf courses are just one of the more “in your face” examples of destructive yet ostentatious spending by those who care more about their pleasure than life itself in the future.

2007-08-20 13:30:45.0 David Dilworth: I’m not sure Tim can described as radical. SInce our culture has logged 95 percent of our native forests, saving the remaining 5 percent can not be called unreasonable.

2007-08-20 13:31:06.0 Chrissy: That is a bit more radical. Oh if we could only stop extinction. Tall order I’m afraid--isn’t it in fact more of a law of nature than anything else?

2007-08-20 13:32:27.0 David Dilworth: It took cultures a few recent centuries to adopt zero-tolerance for killing humans. Slowly we are getting to adopting zero-tolerance for endangered animals.

2007-08-20 13:32:40.0 dubby: The current rate of species extinction is only surpassed by meteor strikes.

2007-08-20 13:32:48.0 Paul Lieberman: Tim, yes, certainly there is that element. That is a playground for the rich, in large part. Yet it is a beautiful spot and I for one am glad that the original developer, Samuel Morse, reversed course and did not sell that land off as building lots. One of the days I played a tournament there, the mist was rising from the hills, the waves were crashing in and one of my fellow players said he hoped he could spend part of his last day on earth in such a setting. He paid the the privilege, sure, but there was nothing wrong with the rleasure he got from that day.

2007-08-20 13:33:05.0 Marcia Hanscom: Tim mentions water. That’s a big problem with golf courses AND lawns. But LA wants us to conserve water so we can build even MORE development! When the oil begins getting more and more expensive as it runs closer to empty, then getting water to all of those golf courses will seem like a luxury. Not to mention to the people of LA, which is not a good place for water to be easily gotten.

2007-08-20 13:35:11.0 dubby: Paul - sounds a bit hedonistic?

2007-08-20 13:35:13.0 Paul Lieberman: Marcia, the pressure put oin golf courses to preserve water is a good thing. And many have responded by using their own lakes, recycling etc. ... things private homeowners can’t do.

2007-08-20 13:35:29.0 David Dilworth: Water: On our Monterey Peninsula we have been enduring a water supply emergency for the past 9 years. To me it is the height of greed and arrogance to propose yet another golf course while people, residents, are conserving as well as they can.

2007-08-20 13:35:35.0 wimpy: Even at Pebble Beach, they’ve started to irrigate with “reclaimed” water, and now, they want to use the “saved” water for more development, rather than to put back into the depleted aquifer....

2007-08-20 13:35:40.0 Chrissy: is water a big problem in Monterey? Don’t imagine it would be. I am mystified when I fly over Palm Springs/desert and see bright splotches of green.

2007-08-20 13:36:20.0 David Dilworth: water2: and facing severe rationing.

2007-08-20 13:36:24.0 wimpy: Water is the biggest policitcal issue on the Monterey Peninsula!

2007-08-20 13:36:47.0 Marcia Hanscom: Why is this a good thing to conserve water only to build more developments and spend hours each day in traffic -- so that one is CRAVING some time on a golf course, one of the few open spaces we have in the city!?

2007-08-20 13:37:04.0 Paul Lieberman: Dubby, I am merely quoting this gentleman. The day was so beautiful, he declared that he hoped that his last on earth would include 18 holes on those cliffs, listening to a certain opera and the company of a certain woman. A fantasy indeed, but that was his at that moment,

2007-08-20 13:37:29.0 Chrissy: I’m a recent transplant from Chicago/Lake Michigan area that’s as deep as Puget Sound so I’m a bit new to the water shortage thing. Sorry

2007-08-20 13:38:49.0 Daniela: On another topic, David could you tell us about the high school student that Paul mentioned in his article - the one that spoke at the June 13th hearing? After all, her generation and those that follow will be the ones to suffer the most for her predecessors avarice and complete disregard for the environment. What compelled her to speak?

2007-08-20 13:41:10.0 David Dilworth: She is the head of the York school environmental club and an artist. Yours is a good question. What is our “consume till we choke” cluture leaving our children and grandchildren? Logging an imperiled forest means they may never get to see it.

2007-08-20 13:41:48.0 dubby: Paul - I’m just as in raptured at the site of a rare Yadon’s Rain Orchid - my boy especially likes all the pollinators - the bees, birds, and butterflys that call the forest home - but your golf game trumps our love of the forest?

2007-08-20 13:42:09.0 Paul Lieberman: ..and she was very effective, by the way. One feature of this sort of dispute in a democracy is that every side uses the ammunition they have. The Pebble Beach Co, could bring out Clint Eastwood, and even have him lobby coastal commissioners one on one...and David could bring out such a young woman to make such an argument.

2007-08-20 13:43:17.0 Marcia Hanscom: Back to Monterey, what I’m really amazed at is the vote at the Coastal commission on this issue. It shows that - in spite of serious political clout (two Commissioners having been removed from their seats and replaced because of this impending vote). Margaret Mead was correct about the power of a few people organizing and educating to change the course of action. David, you and your colleagues must be proud, but also knowing that more attacks toward nature on this beautiful stretch of coast, are on the horizon.

2007-08-20 13:44:13.0 David Dilworth: Paul is right, democracy worked this time. The fundamental problem is the burden is on us, on the public, rather than on those who want to use up our natural phenomena for profit.

2007-08-20 13:45:01.0 wimpy: i read the la times article by Paul Lieberman. I salute Mr. Lieberman for really writing a balanced article. I live on the Monterey Peninsula, and I read the Carmel Pine Cone weekly, and have really gotten tired of publisher Paul Miller’s biased reporting and “Dilworth bashing”.

2007-08-20 13:45:16.0 David Dilworth: I will know the responsibility has been properly affixed when developers are outside the meeting protesting - rather than the public who are rarely paid to attend.

2007-08-20 13:45:44.0 Paul Lieberman: Dubby, no, not at all. The forests and endangered species must be protected and that’s why bodies like the Coastal Commission put developers like the Pebble Beach Co. to such a stern test. That’s a healthy process. But sometimes I think non-golfers can’t imagine that golfers too can become enraptured by the wildlife they encounter: the course I generally play on has a wandering wild turkey, for instance, and of late a visiting egret, and tghe other day a family of deer....all of which draw us out of ourselves and even our “silly” game when they wander by.

2007-08-20 13:46:28.0 Daniela: The youth are extremely effective advocates. They are the ones that will have to deal with the consequences of species and ecosystem extinction.

2007-08-20 13:46:32.0 Chrissy: What was the effect of Schwarzenegger in the commission (in addition to the shady tactics of moving the venue farther from the protestors)? and I do realize the vote was denied but it seemed moreso because it was an all-or-nothing. I get worried over his star-friendly influence.

2007-08-20 13:46:47.0 Daniela: Paul - couldn’t you get the same satisfaction walking in Point Lobos on a hike for example?

2007-08-20 13:49:46.0 David Dilworth: Schwarzenegger: He removed (actually failed to reappoint) Meg Caldwell who was as fair a commissioner as we’ve had. He also put pressure on the Dept of Fish & Game to approve the plan. Schwarzenegger may have been surprised at Meg’s replacement, Steve Blank, who did a genuine thoughtful analysis and voted against the Plan. I understand he had second thoughts the day after the vote when PBC had had a chance to lobby him.

2007-08-20 13:50:03.0 Tim Hermach: But Paul, you know full well the inevitable and ultimate outcome. Very little is saved as the “undue influence of the monied interests” nearly if not always wins in the end. Yes we manage not to lose everything sometimes but a half of a half of a half of a half over time is nearly zero and that’s the condition of our nation, now. What to do about it is not haggle over the termsand conditions for more genocidal development but to begin to considere what is honest, fair and just; to factor in all the “externalities” and utilize “honest and fully-costed” accounting to determine what is allowable behavior, for pleasure, for employment, or for “profits. Unless we do that and begin to behave and make decisions in a far more honest, moral and responsible fashion, our species is increasingly doomed. That, I believe, is what David and others are fighting for, and, what Clint Eastwood, et.al., are fighting against.

2007-08-20 13:50:16.0 David Dilworth: If you want an analysis, email me at HOPE and I’ll send it to you. (www.1hope.org)

2007-08-20 13:50:28.0 Chrissy: Golf is fun. It’s a challenge. It can be beautiful and friendly......but it doesn’t have to be overdone in any one area, particularly when such rare beauty is endangered there. Point Lobos is a hike, it’s beautiful but it’s not golf, or chess or baseball or playing the piano. No comparison.

2007-08-20 13:52:03.0 Paul Lieberman: Daniela, yes, of course. All glory to that, as well. But sorry, I also enjoy competitive sports that you make believe are a life and death matter, even though they are not. I once wrote that sports are “a socially acceptable way to humiliate your fellow man”...though of course you often are the one who gets humbled. Compettion is not for everyone, however -- my wife shoots 120 and has a better time than anyone you’d see.

2007-08-20 13:52:30.0 David Dilworth: Well put Tim.

2007-08-20 13:52:53.0 dubby: Yes - you’ll see the ocassional deer, the egret - but you are more apt to see invasive species like pampas grass, iceplant, starlings, house sparrows, and the like. Yet the biological diversity is gone and lost forever - what took hundreds of thousands of years to create - gone in the blink of an eye. For sport? For the rapture of a few who can afford the course? Its too bad - the game might have its place - remnant forests is not one of them. My boy’s opion on this matter trumps Clint’s anyday of the week.

2007-08-20 13:53:18.0 David Dilworth: Trees Rock !

2007-08-20 13:54:03.0 appower: You know there is no reason to use toxic chemicals on our lawns, I certainly would not and and do not use them on my lawn and I truely enjoy laying down on my lawn, the bosom of the Mother if you will. The oxygen it pumps out is exhilarating. Is a golf course “wrong” if it is organic, non toxic and sustainably water? The natural order is really about abundance and not scarcity, all we have to do is use appropriate non toxic technologies for the solutions. I used to be a golf “hater” but as I have grown older (and wiser?) I have sworn off all forms of “hating” The trees are an issue but I have grown Monterey pines from seed because I love them so much. Everyone needs to check themselves on Clint for he is an avid enviromentalist. The natural order is about abundance....

2007-08-20 13:55:04.0 sopa tarchin: I would think, as a resident of the Peninsula, that Clint would now be more concerned with his legacy than with more development. How much is enough? I wonder why the likes of Uber, Palmer, Eastwood, and the UA guy feel its necessary to keep developing where there is a glut of golf already? If its greed, lets call it that.

2007-08-20 13:55:26.0 David Dilworth: Re: dubby I appreciate your concern. We have 20 golf courses within 15 minutes of Monterey. We are in a water supply emergency and have 68 local species that WE have forced into near extinction. Any more golf courses here is an insult to the 68 species and the people who are enduring that water supply emergency.

2007-08-20 13:55:38.0 Paul Lieberman: Where I live, the tension is most often between preserving golf course or letting them go for housing. Indeed, developers tried to take over the one I play on, the local town declared it parkland and the dispute went all the way to the Supreme Court. Luckily for us: no houses.

2007-08-20 13:55:48.0 Marcia Hanscom: It was NOT only the Governor, but the Democratic party bosses - i.e., Fabian Nunez, who was also very influenced by Eastwood (and his assistant, Coastal Commissioner and Monterey County Supervisor Dave Potter) While I was not at any of the hearings on this matter, I do attend a number of coastal commission hearings, and we lost a very good Commissioner - Steve Padilla, whose job as Mayor of Chula Vista, as well as Coastal Commissioner, were casualties of this epic struggle.

2007-08-20 13:56:14.0 Administrator: We’ll be wrapping up this chat in 5 minutes, so please send in your last questions for Paul and David.

2007-08-20 13:56:55.0 Marcia Hanscom: Paul - will you be more forthcoming as to your bias when reporting on matters in the future?

2007-08-20 13:57:48.0 Marcia Hanscom: (i.e., when you talk to those you interview) - that still troubles me...

2007-08-20 13:58:51.0 Chrissy: Just thanks for constructive opposing viewpoints and I hope you stick with it David

2007-08-20 13:58:55.0 sopa tarchin: A final comment on golf. I love the game, I play it regularly. I think the original piece tended to separate those who love golf, and those who love the environment unfairly. I love both, and if given a choice, would preserve the environment any day. I think Clint should do the same. He already has it all.

2007-08-20 13:59:32.0 Paul Lieberman: Marcia, David knew right away I was a golfer. We discussed that fact -- and how I learned from my father --right in the woods at our first meeting. The only thing I did not disclose was that I was on the peninsula to play a golf tournament!! But much of what went on between us was rhetorical play.

2007-08-20 13:59:56.0 David Dilworth: Pres Bush (the first) declared “I am environmentalist.” When you examine the things Clint put up as his enviro claims - you find out he always made money in the deal. I have yet to see him freely and without strings attached, donating any environmentally vital habitat. He only proposed bulldozing them.

2007-08-20 14:00:34.0 Chrissy: There’s not enough time to start on the Bushes.......

2007-08-20 14:00:45.0 dubby: Paul - Thanks for the provactive article. Keep them coming. David - keep up the good fight.

2007-08-20 14:00:51.0 sopa tarchin: Thats absolutely correct, David. The question is, at this stage of his life, why?

2007-08-20 14:00:54.0 Paul Lieberman: I still intend to get David on the golf course and convert him to the dark (greens, not green) side.

2007-08-20 14:00:57.0 David Dilworth: For more information you can see: 1hope.org/pradiata.htm or 1hope.org/pbc.

2007-08-20 14:01:51.0 Administrator: Thank you Paul and David! And thank you all for participating in this chat.

2007-08-20 14:02:23.0 dubby: Paul - and maybe you’ll head out with some Audubon experts? Some native plant society folks and finally get a chance to see that rare orchid? Or maybe even more wonderful - the red legged frog?

2007-08-20 14:02:33.0 David Dilworth: Thank you

2007-08-20 14:02:53.0 David Dilworth: PS The orchids are blooming right now. Call if you want to join HOPE for an ecosystem walk.