Politics 88 : Governor Avoids Direct Response in Second One-on-One Debate : Jackson Presses Dukakis for Details on Budget

The Rev. Jesse Jackson challenged Democratic presidential rival Michael S. Dukakis on Saturday night to commit himself to a federal budget that would double spending on education and increase outlays for Head Start and the war on drugs.

But Dukakis did not respond directly during the televised campaign debate, which was held in advance of Tuesday’s Pennsylvania primary. “I’m doing that already,” he said, referring to his role as governor of Massachusetts.

Pressed by Jackson to say how he would operate as President, Dukakis said: “We have got to make choices. Is it going to be day care or ‘Star Wars?’ Those are the choices that the next President is going to make. I am prepared to make them. I think Jesse is prepared to make them”

Dukakis, however, did not spell out in the detail provided by Jackson what his choices would be.

Shift in Tactics

Jackson was more aggressive in this debate, which was held at Steel Valley High School in nearby Munhall, than he had been Friday night in Philadelphia in the first one-on-one confrontation between the two remaining Democratic presidential candidates. And the shift in tactics represented an effort by Jackson to sharpen the distinctions between himself and Dukakis, whose victory in the New York primary last Tuesday established him as the undisputed front-runner.

“Are you willing to deal with a budget for that,” Jackson said, looking at Dukakis as he sat a few feet away on the auditorium stage, referring to his proposals for increased spending on social programs.

“We’re saying good things,” Jackson declared to the cheers of his supporters in the audience. “But we have to pay for our dreams.”

But the tone of the discussion was less acrimonious than it was during some of the earlier debates in the campaign. This was in part because the discussion focused on substantive rather than personal differences, but mainly because Dukakis for the most part did not argue back at Jackson’s challenges.

Seeks Commitments

In pressing Dukakis to make specific commitments to spending on such things as education and social programs, Jackson argued that such concrete pledges were necessary to establish a mandate for the next Democratic President to reverse the conservative leadership of President Reagan.

“I want to have a mandate,” Jackson said. “I want to know that the people sitting here tonight want me to double the education budget (now $20 billion) if I win the nomination.”

“It will cost to fight a war on drugs,” he declared. “I say let’s put money on the table to pay for education.” When the two candidates were asked to describe the biggest differences between them, Jackson said: “I’ve established a commitment to put forth on the table budgets that will lay out my priorities.”

‘I’ve Taken the Heat’

“Because of the budget deficit, hard choices must be made, and I’ve taken the heat,” he said, pointing out that he has advocated a five-year freeze in defense spending, for which he has been sharply attacked by those who believe such a move would weaken the country’s military Establishment.

Responding to the same question, Dukakis said: “The strength I bring to this campaign and would bring to this presidency is as a doer. I just don’t talk about jobs, I have helped to save hundreds of thousands of jobs.” He listed a number of other areas, including health care, drugs and housing, in which he claimed that he did not “just talk” about the problems but worked to achieve solutions.

Implicit Criticism

Although Dukakis did not refer to Jackson directly, this seemed to be an implicit criticism of the fact that despite his skill as an orator Jackson has no comparable record of achievement in public office.

But Jackson fired back at Dukakis, who has often said he does not want to be a “great communicator,” by claiming that he was a communicator and that “leaders must communicate,” citing John F. Kennedy and Franklin D. Roosevelt as examples of presidents who had used their gifts as communicators to inspire the country.

The debate Saturday night was sponsored by the United Steelworkers of America, Carnegie Mellon University of Pittsburgh and the Tri-State Conference on Steel, a group of union members and community activists. It was an effort to focus the attention of the candidates on the economic problems of western Pennsylvania, which has been hard hit by the decline of the steel industry.

Many questions focused on the industry’s difficulties, and both candidates promised that they would make efforts, if elected, to help the industry modernize and meet competition from abroad.

Campaigning Across State

The two rivals began the day Saturday campaigning at opposite ends of the state--Dukakis in the east and Jackson in the west.

Jackson, after struggling for days about how to challenge Dukakis, criticized the Massachusetts governor for failing to make clear how he would reduce the federal budget deficit.

Jackson for the first time attached Dukakis’ name to his criticism of those who would only “manage Reaganomics,” rather than reverse it. He labeled Dukakis as cautious for his proposal “to collect uncollected taxes” rather than to roll back Reagan Administration tax cuts.

Jackson also questioned the effectiveness of the Massachusetts anti-drug policies for which Dukakis has claimed credit, saying that in his visits to the state he had encountered no evidence that drug use was less widespread there than elsewhere in the country.

Complaint About Media

The direct criticism of Dukakis, voiced in response to questions from reporters traveling with him aboard a riverboat down the Monongahela River, came after Jackson had complained repeatedly that the media were ignoring his efforts to distinguish himself from his rival.

Campaigning on the Philadelphia waterfront, Dukakis said: “It’s important that we run a strong and positive campaign. I don’t think the American people are interested in what I think of Jesse Jackson or what he thinks of me. They want to know what kind of leadership we’re going to provide for this country.”

Staff writers Thomas B. Rosenstiel and Douglas Jehl contributed to this story.