THE BUSH-DUKAKIS DEBATE : Excerpts: ‘America Stands Tall . . . ‘ ‘. . . We Can Do Better Than That’

Following are excerpts from the debate Thursday night between George Bush and Michael S. Dukakis:

Death Penalty

Dukakis: I’ve opposed the death penalty all my life. I don’t see any evidence that it’s a deterrent, and I think there are better and more effective ways to deal with violent crime.

Bush: I do believe that some crimes are so heinous, so outrageous--and I’d say particularly those that result in the death of a police officer--those real brutal crimes, I do believe in the death penalty. And I think it’s a deterrent.

Vice Presidential Choice

Bush: I’ve never seen such a pounding, an unfair pounding, on a young senator in my entire life. And I’ve never seen a presidential campaign where the presidential nominee runs against my vice presidential nominee. Dan Quayle . . . unlike my opponent, is an expert in national defense, helped amend the INF treaty. . . . I have great confidence in him. . . . I’m proud of my choice. I don’t think age is the only criterion. . . . I made a good selection. . . . He could do the job.

Dukakis: This is the first presidential decision that we, as nominees, were called upon to make, and that’s why people are so concerned because it is an opportunity for us to demonstrate what we were looking for in a running mate. More than that, it was the first national security decision we had to make. . . . I picked Lloyd Bentsen because I thought he was the best qualified person for the job. Mr. Bush picked Dan Quayle, and before he did it, he said: ‘Watch my choice for vice president. It will tell all.’ And it sure did.

Taxes

Bush: The way you kill expansion is to raise taxes. And I don’t want to do that. And I won’t do that. . . . What I have proposed is something much better. And it’s going to take discipline of the executive branch. It’s going to take the discipline of the congressional branch--and that is what I call a flexible freeze that allows growth--about 4% or the rate of inflation--but does not permit the Congress just to add on spending.

Dukakis: If we continue with the policies that Mr. Bush is talking about here this evening--flexible freeze--somebody described it the other day as a kind of economic Slurpee. He wants to spend billions on virtually every weapon system around. He says he’s not going to raise taxes, though he has broken that pledge repeatedly. He says he wants to give the wealthiest 1% in this country a five-year, $40-billion tax break, and we’re going to pay for it. And he’s proposing all kinds of new programs for new spending costing billions. . . . If we continue with this for another four years, then I’m worried about the next generation, whether we can ever turn this situation around.

Balancing the Budget

Dukakis: I’m not sure that I can promise that (within the next four years). I don’t think either one of us can, really. There’s no way of anticipating what may happen. I will say . . . that we have set as our goal a steady, gradual reduction of the deficit which will require tough choices on spending. It will require a good strong rate of economic growth. It will require a plan that the President works out with Congress--doesn’t blame them . . . which brings that deficit down. It will require us to go out and collect billions and billions of taxes owed that aren’t being paid in this country. And that’s grossly unfair to the average American.

Bush: What we have to do is restrain the growth of spending. And we are doing a better job of it. The Congress is doing a better job of it. And the dynamics work. They don’t work if you go raise taxes then the Congress spends it. . . . The American working man and woman is not taxed too little, the federal government continues to spend too much.

Likability

Dukakis: I’ve been in politics 25 years. I’ve won a lot of elections. I’ve lost a few, as you know, and learned from those losses. I won the Democratic nomination in 51 separate contests. I think I’m a reasonably likable guy. I’m serious, though I think I’m a little more loveable these days than I used to be back in my youth when I began in my state Legislature. But I’m also a serious guy. I think that the presidency of the United States is a very serious office. And I think we have to address these issues in a very serious way.

Bush: I don’t think it’s a question of whether people like you or not to make you an effective leader. I think it’s whether you share the broad dreams of the American people, whether you have confidence in the people’s ability to get things done, or whether you think it all should be turned over, as many of the liberals do, to Washington, D.C. It’s a question in foreign affairs of experience, knowing world leaders, knowing how to build on a superb record of this Administration in arms control.

Defense

Bush: If I knew of three new weapon systems that I thought were purely waste, and weren’t protected by the Congress, they wouldn’t be in the budget. . . . We are protecting a couple of options in terms of modernizing our strategic forces. My secretary of defense is going to have to make a very difficult decision in which system to go forward with. But we are protecting both of them. We’re moving forward with negotiations. . . . It would be dumb, negotiating policy with the Soviets, to cut one or the other of the two options right now.

Dukakis: The vice president’s mathematics just doesn’t add up. . . . There’s no way that we can build all those weapon systems that the vice president says he wants to build within the existing defense budget. Everybody knows that, including the people at the Pentagon. . . . We’re not going to spend billions and trillions that Mr. Bush wants to spend on Star Wars. We’re not going to spend billions on MX’s on railroad cars, which is a weapon system we don’t need, can’t afford, and won’t help our defense posture at all. . . . I don’t rule out modernization and there are discussions going on now in the Congress and over at the Pentagon about a less expensive modernized land-based leg of the triad. But there are limits to what we can spend. You can’t divorce our military security from our economic security. How can we build a strong America militarily if we’re teeter-tottering on a mountain of debt?

Politics and Social Security

Bush: It’s just about this time of year that the Democrats start saying: ‘The Republicans are going to take away your Social Security.’ It always works that way. I’ve seen it in precinct politics in Texas, and I’ve seen it at the national level. We have made the Social Security Trust Fund sound, and it is going to be operating at surpluses. And I don’t want the liberal Democratic Congress to spend out of that Social Security Trust Fund or go and take the money out for some other purpose.

Dukakis: The reason that we raised concerns not just in election years, but every year, is because Republicans, once they’re elected, go in there and start cutting. You did it in 1985. The Administration tried to do it repeatedly, repeatedly in ‘81, ‘82, and I’m sure you’ll try to do it again because there’s no way that you can finance what you want to spend, there’s no way you can pay for that five-year, $40-billion tax cut for the rich and still buy all those weapon systems you want to buy, unless you raid the Social Security Trust Fund.

Closing Statements

Dukakis: Twenty-six days from today, you and millions of Americans will choose two people to lead us into the future as President and vice president of the United States. Our opponents say: ‘Things are OK. Don’t rock the boat. Not to worry.’ They say we should be satisfied. But I don’t think we can be satisfied when we’re spending $150 billion a year in interest alone on the national debt, much of it going to foreign bankers, or when 25% of our high school students are dropping out of school or when we have 2 1/2 million of our fellow citizens, a third of them veterans, who are homeless and living on streets and in doorways in this country or when Mr. Bush’s prescription for our economic future is another tax giveaway to the rich. We can do better than that. Not working with government alone, but all of us working together. Lloyd Bentsen and I are optimists and so are the American people.

Bush: I want to hold the line on taxes and keep this, the longest expansion in modern history, going until everybody in America benefits. I want to invest in our children, because I mean it when I say I want a kinder and gentler nation. And by that, I want to have child care where the families, the parents have control. I want to keep our neighborhoods much, much better in terms of anti-crime. And that’s why I would appoint judges that have a little more sympathy for the victims of crime and a little less for the criminals. That’s why I do feel if some police officer is gunned down that the death penalty is required. . . . This election is about big things, and perhaps the biggest is world peace. And I ask you to consider the experience I have had in working with a President who has revolutionized the situation around the world. America stands tall again, and as a result we are credible and we have now achieved a historic arms control agreement. I want to build on that.