LOS ANGELES TIMES INTERVIEW : Hosni Mubarak : Striving to Lead Egypt’s Struggling Democracy

When Anwar Sadat, a diplomatic icon for his courage and foresight in making peace with Israel, was assassinated in October, 1981, few people in the West were willing to bet on the future of Egypt under his designated successor, then-Vice President Hosni Mubarak. A former Air Force chief of staff who had become vice president in 1975, just two years after the last Middle East war, Mubarak had not established a reputation in the subtler arts of international politics. Almost totally overshadowed by Sadat, Mubarak was not a major player at the 1978 Camp David conference that opened the way for the Egypt-Israel peace agreement. Even in Egypt, he was not particularly well-known.

But in the more than 13 years since Sadat was cut down by a hail of bullets, Mubarak has confounded his detractors. Still firmly in control of Egypt’s political system, the former general, 66, has not only kept the peace with Israel but has become America’s most reliable ally in the Arab world. A succession of secretaries of state have looked to Mubarak to use his influence to promote moderation among Arab governments.

In the almost 17 years since the Camp David conference, Egypt has received about $35 billion in U.S. economic and military aid--more than $25 billion of it since Mubarak moved into the presidential palace. With the aid of the U.S. taxpayer dollars, Egypt has rebuilt its tattered military and repaired much of its dilapidated infrastructure. But critics complain that it has not ended poverty or banished illiteracy. Mubarak concedes that Egypt’s economy remains troubled, but he insists that Washington’s aid money has been well-spent and that it has produced benefits for both countries.

Although Egypt is technically a democracy, with a profusion of political parties seeking seats in its Parliament, all the parties are weak except for the one that supports the president--which has allowed Mubarak to hold power without any substantial challenge. Though he was promoted from vice president, Mubarak has governed without a vice president of his own. Critics say the pace of both political and economic reform has been slow, while supporters insist Mubarak deserves credit for liberalizing steps he has already taken in a country with a 7,000-year history of authoritarian rule.

Seated in a straight-backed armchair in an antique-furnished sitting room of Blair House, the residence for visiting dignitaries across from the White House, Mubarak spoke in a steady and usually unemotional voice. Sometimes, when he thought a question was unfriendly, he would preface his answer with a pointed forefinger and a curt, “Look.” But he never lost his aplomb. At least a half-dozen aides sat clustered on the periphery, occasionally offering words of advice in Arabic.

Question: Over the past 17 years, the United States has injected $35 billion into Egypt, about $2 billion a year. Egypt still has not shown significant economic growth for about a decade. Per-capita income is only $650, and unemployment is 17%. Why should the U.S. continue to pour money into Egypt? And what do you have to show for the money already provided?

Answer: First of all, the aid which we take from the United States is for mutual interest. It’s not given for the sake of the eyes of Egypt. The money is spent in the United States by American authorities. We are not taking money and spending, like other countries, as we like. We buy equipment or arms from the United States . . . . It’s being supervised by the United States or the aid organization. They interfere or participate in the purchasing of anything from the United States. So to say the aid is not used very well, I can tell you I’m sorry, the aid is well looked after by the American authorities.

The second point is that it didn’t (help) employment when you start with a very high rate of increase in population, which created a hell of a problem for us. The rate of increase in population was 3. Now we made a very good program, and it’s 2.2 and is decreasing.

You said the rate of unemployment is 17%. I don’t agree. It’s about 9.5%.

Q: The U.S. Embassy in Cairo predicted this year that there would be no economic growth until Egypt undergoes greater economic reform. Specifically, it was critical of Egypt because of its failure to sell off enough of the inefficient state-owned businesses. Do you have any plans to deal with that criticism?

A: We are working on the plan of privatization. We did a lot. I just can’t work quickly, like what happened in Mexico and other places. We can’t do everything as, for example, the IMF wants us to do. They have only one prescription, to be implemented by all countries at one time. (But) the countries differ, in tradition, way of behaving, way of dealing with matters.

Q: Another report suggests that Egypt will have to create 3.6 million jobs in the next five years just to keep up with the current unemployment level, not to make any impact on further population growth. How do you plan to create those jobs?

A: Investment.

Q: You’re depending on the outside world to create jobs, in effect?

A: Outside investors, Egyptian investors, Arab investors. I know it’s difficult--but we are working hard for it. We are paving the way or removing all obstacles for the investment.

Q: When you came to power in the early 1980s, you pledged that you would accelerate the democratization program. Egypt has come under criticism from various sources for not moving fast enough. On one basic issue, 14 years after you came to power as a former vice president, you have still not appointed your own vice president.

A: Does Francois Mitterrand have a vice president? Our system is not like the American system. Our constitution says that when the president leaves or disappears, for one reason or another, the speaker will take over, and they will elect another president--like any constitution. Your system appoints a vice president. Our system, no.

Q: What are the next steps you plan to take to further the democratization process?

A: We have now about 13 parties in our country. We have free press and much more newspapers criticizing the government--more than those who are saying good words about the government--free elections, independent judiciary system.

Q: But there are still some parties that are banned from running.

A: What kind of parties?

Q: The Muslim Brotherhood, among others.

A: (It’s an) illegal party. It’s been dissolved since after the revolution. It is not a party. It’s a legal formation which could be put before the court if they did any activities.

Q: But they have been tolerated in the past. Its members have run for office under the cover of other parties.

A: They could go under the cover. We will not prevent them. But they go as Muslim Brothers. It is prohibited, according to the law.

Q: The Arab world is the last bloc of countries holding out against democracy. When you’re talking with your counterparts in other countries, does the issue of democracy ever come up? Does anyone ever talk about what needs to be done?

A: Democracy in the United States can’t work in Saudi Arabia. It can’t work here or there. Each country has its special tradition, its special way of dealing. So you can’t ask all countries to have the same democracy. It will never work.

What’s happening in Africa because of democracy and freedom? Every day, there is a coup, a coup, a coup--because of democracy. In some countries, (there are) tribal systems. Do you want them to have democratic systems? Look at what happened in Rwanda and Burundi!

Q: The annual human-rights reports published by the State Department and Human Rights Watch are both critical of Egypt.

A: They are critical of all countries all over the world--not just Egypt. Their reports just look after the human rights of the criminals. They don’t look for the human rights of the innocent people.

Have you ever heard of (Nobel laureate for literature) Naguib Mahfouz? He was about to be killed by some of these extremists. The report has only one and a half lines about Mahfouz because he is not an extremist. (But the report has) 30 pages on a man who is committing crime, planning for explosions in upper Egypt, and killing others. And the innocent man who has a Nobel prize--only one-and-a-half lines.

Q: So how do you explain the charges of mass arrests, extra-judicial killings, torture?

A: Not to the extent that’s mentioned. There may be some--like any country in the world. It may happen. But if there is a complaint, we send it to the court right away. Anywhere in the world, you can’t prevent it 100%.

Some cases went to the courts and some people were punished. And some people were proved innocent.

Q: How powerful are the Islamists in Egypt today? Do you feel you have now managed to control them? Last weekend, there were more incidents between Islamists and security forces.

A: Don’t compare me with Algeria. The first government in the world was born on the banks of the river Nile. Egypt can control any kind of extremist or terrorism.

What kind of dialogue could be made with people who use machine guns?

Forget the word Islamic , because Islam is a very good religion of peace, love and cooperation. Many of those committing crimes are being financed by money from abroad, not from the country.

Q: From where?

A: I can’t tell you. We know the money is coming from a bank in Italy, sometimes a bank in Greece, in Cyprus, everywhere. They transfer them to Jordan or some other place. We are tracing, too, from where the money comes. Some money is coming from the States.

Islam is not violence, is not bloodshed, is not hatred. Those are who committing crimes are not real Muslims.

Q: Are you worried about the march of Islam across the Middle East? Are you worried about other countries? Are you worried about the phenomenon at all?

A: The phenomenon a bit, but not to the extent as you in the United States. You far away think that everything is black. Not to that extent. In Egypt, we could control everything very perfectly.

Q: What happens if Algeria’s war goes on and on?

A: Algeria will take some time. But my fear is that these people you call Islamic take over, it will lead to national fighting. Isn’t that what’s happening in Afghanistan now?

I was expecting what happened in Algiers maybe one or two months before it started. They agreed on forming a religious party . . . although their constitution doesn’t permit religious parties.

Islam or religion is a very sensitive issue. If I made a religious Islamic party, and you are a Muslim and you don’t want to join, oh, you are a traitor. You don’t believe in God. You may be eliminated. So our laws don’t allow the forming parties on religious basis. Religious parties are very dangerous. Tunisia asked me about that. I told them our law doesn’t permit us to give permission for religious parties. They did the same, like Egypt. It’s much more stable.

Q: And yet Morocco’s King Hassan, when he was recently here, told the United States that he supported U.S. policy on Algeria, that he thought we were doing the right thing in urging mediation. So you disagree with U.S. strategy?

A: We kept making a dialogue with these people for about 11 years. And during that period, they were growing up, growing up, to the extent that they started to use force. I stopped.

But the king is a neighbor to Algeria. He may understand Algeria better than I.

Q: Some Western diplomats in Cairo were quoted as saying your government is on the brink of crisis.

A: You could read the report in some newspapers that Egypt is on the verge of crisis, that its economy is not working well. You read another newspaper in France that it says the economy is improving every day. Why do you believe only the one biased newspaper, one biased report?