‘I Thought to Myself . . . I Would Deny the Relationship’

These are excerpts from the Senate deposition of former White House intern Monica S. Lewinsky, taken Monday. Questioning Lewinsky was Rep. Ed Bryant (R-Tenn.), one of the House prosecutors. Among those attending were Plato Cacheris, Lewinsky’s lawyer, and Sens. Mike DeWine (R-Ohio) and Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.), representing the Senate.

Question: All right. Let’s go forward another week or so to December the 11th [1997] and a lunch that you had with Vernon Jordan, I believe, in his office.

Answer: Yes.

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Q: How did--how was that meeting set up?

A: Through his secretary.

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Q: Did you instigate that, or did he call through his secretary?

A: I don’t remember.

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Q: What was the purpose of that meeting?

A: Uh, it was to discuss my job situation.

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Q: And what, what--how was that discussed?

A: Uh, Mr. Jordan gave me a list of three names and suggested I contact these people in a letter that I should CC him on, and that’s what I did. . . .

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Q: During this meeting, did he make any comments about your status as a friend of the president?

A: Yes.

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Q: What--what did he say?

A: In one of his remarks, he said something about me being a friend of the president.

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Q: And did you respond?

A: Yes.

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Q: How?

A: I said that I didn’t, uh--I think I--my grand jury testimony, I know I talked about this, so it’s probably more accurate. My memory right now is I said something about, uh, seeing him more as, uh, a man than as a president, and I treated him accordingly.

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Q: Did you express your frustration to Mr. Jordan with, uh, with the president?

A: I expressed that sometimes I had frustrations with him, yes.

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Q: And what was his response to you about, uh--after you talked about the president?

A: Uh, he sort of jokingly said to me, You know what your problem is, and don’t deny it--you’re in love with him. But it was a sort of lighthearted nature.

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Q: Did you--did you have a response to that?

A: I probably blushed or giggled or something.

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Q: Do you still have feelings for the president?

A: I have mixed feelings.

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Q: What, uh--maybe you could tell us a little bit more about what those mixed feelings are.

A: I think what you need to know is that my grand jury testimony is truthful irrespective of whatever those mixed feelings are in my testimony today.

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Q: . . . You said there were mixed feelings. What about--do you still, uh, respect the president, still admire the president?

A: Yes.

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Q: Do you still appreciate what he is doing for this country as the president?

A: Yes.

Addressing Cover Stories

Q: Now, you have testified in the grand jury. I think your closing comment was that no one ever asked you to lie, but yet in that very conversation of December the 17th, 1997, when the president told you that you were on the witness list [for the Paula Corbin Jones sexual harassment lawsuit], he also suggested that you could sign an affidavit and use misleading cover stories [about their relationship]. Isn’t that correct?

A: Uh, well, I, I guess in my mind, I separate necessarily signing an affidavit and using misleading cover stories. So, does . . .

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Q: Well, those two . . .

A: Those three events occurred, but they don’t--they weren’t linked for me.

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Q: But they were in the same conversation, were they not?

A: Yes, they were.

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Q: Did you understand in the context of that conversation, December the 17th . . .

A: I, I don’t . . . I didn’t. . . .

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Q: OK, Let me ask it. Did you understand in the context of the telephone conversation with the president that early morning of December the 17th--did you understand that you would deny your relationship with the president to the Jones lawyers through the use of these cover stories?

A: From what I learned in that--oh, through those cover stories, I don’t know, but from what I learned in that conversation, I thought to myself I knew I would deny the relationship.

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Q: And you would deny the relationship to the Jones lawyers?

A: Yes, correct.

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Q: Good.

A: If--if that’s what it came to.

‘The First Salacious Occasion’

Q: Let me shift gears just a minute and ask you about--and I’m going to be delicate about this because I’m conscious of people here in the room and my--my own personal concerns--but I want to refer you to the first so-called salacious occasion, and I’m not going to get into the details. I’m not . . .

A: Can, can we, can you call it something else?

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Q: OK.

A: I mean, this is--this is my relationship. . . .

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Q: What would you like to call it?

A: It was my first encounter with the president, so I don’t really see it as my first salacious--that’s not what this was.

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Q: Well, that’s kind of been the word that’s been pickup up all around, so. . . .

A: Right.

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Q: Let’s say on this first. . . .

A: Encounter, maybe?

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Q: Encounter, OK.

A: OK.

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Q: So we all know what we’re talking about. You had several of these encounters, perhaps 10 or 11 of these encounters; is that right?

A: Yes.

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Q: OK. Now, with regard to the first one on November the 15th, 1995, you have testified to a set of facts where the president actually touched you in certain areas. . . . You have testified to that?

A: Yes.

‘Other Similar Encounters’

Q:The conduct that you were involved in, the encounter of November the 15th, 1995, fit within that definition of “sexual relations” [in the Jones case]?

A: The second encounter of that evening did.

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Q: Right. And were there other similar encounters later on with the president, not that day but other occasions, that would have likewise fit into that definition of “sexual relations” in the Paula Jones case?

A: Yes. And--yes.

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Q: There was more than one occasion where that occurred?

A: Correct.

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Q: OK, if the president testifies that he did not--he was not guilty of having a sexual relationship under the Paula Jones definition even, then that testimony is not truthful, is it?

Cacheris: Objection. She should not be called upon to testify what was in the mind of another person. She’s testifying to the facts and she has given the facts.

Q: I would ask that she answer the question.

DeWine: Go ahead.

Leahy: The objection is noted for the record.

DeWine: The objection is noted. She may answer the question.

A: I, I really . . .

Leahy: If she can.

A: . . . don’t feel comfortable characterizing whether what he said was truthful or not truthful. I know I’ve testified to what I believe is true.

Q: Well, truth is not a wandering standard.