Today: Is free speech being abused in popular culture?

On the eve of 2001, Calendar brought together three pairs of high-profile creators and administrators from disparate parts of the entertainment and arts world to candidly discuss issues of the day. In this first installment, “Law & Order” creator Dick Wolf sat down with Grammy-winning record producer Rick Rubin to reflect on a year’s worth of controversy over content that stretched from Hollywood to Capitol Hill.

Are artists’ rights in danger? Or are they being used to protect a pop culture that idealizes all things thuggish, lurid and vulgar?

Wolf’s Emmy-winning NBC series “Law & Order” is the longest-running of today’s television dramas, and with the launch next season of “Law & Order: Criminal Intent,” there will be three prime-time shows each week bearing its brand name. Wolf, 54, has never shied away from edgy plots in “Law & Order,” and he was locked in a very public dispute several years ago with Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) over television content issues.

Rubin, 37, was at ground zero for the explosion of rap music on the pop-culture scene in 1984 as co-founder of Def Jam Records, which introduced Public Enemy, LL Cool J and the Beastie Boys. In the studio, he has crafted the sound for acts as varied as Johnny Cash, Tom Petty and the Red Hot Chili Peppers.

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Geoff Boucher: In 2000, we saw culture critic Sen. Joe Lieberman (D-Conn.) on the Democratic presidential ticket and Senate hearings on Hollywood’s marketing of adult content to kids. The politicians and a number of advocacy groups also lashed out at Eminem for his influence on youth. How much of this would you attribute to election-year rhetoric?

Dick Wolf: A lot, quite a bit, and I think it’s basically over for about another 18 months.

Rick Rubin: [sounding surprised] Really?

Wolf: Then I think it’ll heat up again. It’s like the tides. Very few people--because almost nobody in show business is as old as I am--remember all the various things that have gone on over the past, literally, 30 and 40 years, starting with the Kefauver Commission in the ‘50s. It’s always the same thing. It’s tradition. You can’t go wrong if you’re a politician. There are a lot of very conservative people in this country, and you’re on the side of the angels, protecting kids and protecting America from the evils of Hollywood and entertainment. You know, all of us are basically bloodsucking leeches sucking the brains out of children all over the country. . . . It’s so overblown, the level of reportage that these things get. You pull out the papers from five years ago and put the headlines down and they’re exactly the same. For the most part, it’s just a new set of politicians. And the election is over, so . . .

Rubin: I’m just surprised to hear you say that. But it seems that regardless of what comes down [from politicians], the voice of the public seems to make the difference. The art that runs into content problems wouldn’t flourish if it wasn’t what the audience was there for. It seems like regardless of whether it be ratings systems in the movies or stickering CDs, ultimately it seems like nothing gets in the way of the audience getting what they want. Very rarely.

Wolf: Basically, I think the audience gets what it deserves and what it wants.

Rubin: To go further, there’s so much available on the Web, and kids are more Web-savvy than anyone. So far there’s been no control set up, and I don’t even know that that’s possible.

Wolf: All I know is I have a 13-year-old daughter who has probably 150 CDs, and 142 of them have lyric warnings on them.

Boucher: Is that a cause of concern for you or just a sign of the times?

Wolf: Look, the worst parental step that can be taken almost under any set of circumstances is saying, “You can’t listen to this, you can’t watch this, you can’t do this,” because it’s an invitation. I still do remember what it was like to be a teenager. You say “No,” and it becomes more appealing. The fact is: There ain’t no new words; they’ve heard them all. I mean, I don’t particularly like Eminem, and she doesn’t either. But that’s a personal taste. Some of the stuff she listens to constantly surprises me, because she was really into rap about a year and a half ago, and I’m thinking, “Boy this sure does describe her Montecito upbringing.” But she’s a normal teenager.

Boucher: It’s hard to talk about content issues these days without talking about Eminem, who some people view as a real threat to youth. That was also said about Elvis Presley, the Rolling Stones, the Doors, Alice Cooper. . . . Is he just the latest in a long line?

Rubin: Very much so, just in the line of rock ‘n’ roll history. As Elvis gets acceptable, the limit gets pushed of what needs to be said to create that new boundary that makes a grown-up think, “Wow, this may be too much.” There will always be that limit being pushed.

Wolf: The higher the bar goes, the higher the bar gets set by the next generation to make parents crazy. I remember when I was about 8 years old and my father calling me in to see “The Ed Sullivan Show” and laughing hysterically, and it was Elvis on TV. He said, “Look at this guy.” And I thought, wow, he’s cool. I mean, I don’t think “cool” was even around then, but I definitely thought he was cool. They only shot him from the waist up, and you were wondering what was going on. He sure was dancing around a lot.

Boucher: Have you seen or heard anything recently that you felt was going too far, especially something that seemed to be marketed or aimed at young people?

Wolf: Anything that gives you pause now, wait six months and see if it still horrifies you. I mean, . . . you know, Ice-T is playing a cop for me now. [Both laugh loudly.] That’s about as full-circle as you can get in a creative arena. And as I’ve said before, he’s about the coolest guy I’ve ever met. But you know, [Ice-T’s recording of] “Cop Killer” sure did upset a lot of people. Perceptions change. So I don’t know. Is Eminem the Perry Como of 2015? I’m not sure.

Boucher: Since Eminem is the poster boy for content issues these days, let’s talk about him. On his “The Marshall Mathers LP” there’s an unrelenting song about him murdering his screaming wife with a chain saw. The images are incredibly hateful--you can imagine Joe Lieberman is not a fan.

Rubin: To me it’s pretty ridiculous. You can’t take people killing people with chain saws in a song as a real threat.

Boucher: But more than the gore, there’s so much pain and hatred. It’s not even the acts he describes, it’s the . . .

Rubin: It’s the sentiment. Yes, it is interesting how the levels of hatred in art are coming through now or seem more apparent. I’ve seen it in comedy too. . . . It seems the level of pain that’s being exposed in the creative process is higher, or people feel freer to express more personal things.

Wolf: The essence of great art throughout history is to make people think. If you look at [Picasso’s] “Guernica” or Van Gogh’s paintings . . . but it sure does make you think. Good art has always outraged people, going back to the Impressionists, really even the height of the Renaissance.

Rubin: In many ways, people don’t take notice of cutting-edge art unless they’re really outraged. The thing that offends me the most has nothing to do with content issues, it just has to do with quality issues. It’s so frustrating to go to the movies. The last eight or 10 movies I went to, I left thinking I shouldn’t go to the movies anymore.

Boucher: You both are in the business of making profitable art, but that means dealing with the realities of corporate masters. Have you felt any extra pressure because of the heightened content debate?

Rubin: [long pause] I don’t really feel that way, no. It was worse during the Ice-T/”Cop Killer” time. Being at Warner Bros. at that time, there was a real feeling that you had to watch what you did, that there was a threat. It doesn’t seem like that now.

Wolf: I’ve never felt it. I’ve never been precluded by any network from doing any story that I’ve ever wanted. And the only thing we won’t do is teenage suicide. Because I’ve seen the statistics, and they show that any time anything is done on that, the suicide rates spike. It’s absolutely linear. It’s imitative behavior.

Boucher: Now the audience of “Law & Order” skews older anyway, but some of the most controversial and graphic content in entertainment, such as Eminem, is aimed at a far younger audience. Many of the buyers of “Marshall Mathers” are 13 and 14 years old--does that change the way its content should be viewed?

Rubin: I don’t think so. I think it’s the artist’s job to speak his mind and do the best that he can. And I think Eminem does that, and I think he’s talking about things that are relevant and personal to him and to the culture. And it wouldn’t be as successful as it is if it wasn’t relevant and didn’t strike a nerve. . . . It fits properly in the culture. The culture creates the Eminem, the Eminem doesn’t create the culture.

Boucher: Let’s look forward. The Federal Trade Commission has said it has no legal ability to change the way Hollywood markets to young people, neither Tipper Gore nor Joe Lieberman will be taking their content crusade to the White House, and the campaign is over. But there are still signs that McCain and others will champion on with this issue.

Wolf: I think it’s a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Everyone understands that politicians yell and scream but basically nothing gets done. It’s one of the real truisms that at the end of the day, most Americans realize that the government has not improved any business they’ve ever got involved with and censorship is, to use the cliche, a very slippery slope.

Rubin: And who’s the judge?

Wolf: And who’s the judge. That was the basic problem with the [television] ratings system when they wanted this ratings board in Washington--a bunch of politicians deciding what my kid gets to see? No thank you. . . . And really the bulk of stuff on television is pretty harmless. All the bad stuff is on the premium channels [laughs]. . . . Parents should be the ones that decide what their children see and watch, and they should be aware of what they’re doing. But I don’t think I want the federal government or politicians making those decisions for me. I find it unbelievable that many parents in America seem willing to abrogate that responsibility to a third party.

Rubin: It’s just not wanting to take responsibility. It’s easy, blame-shifting. Blame someone else, can’t be my fault. It must be Hollywood. It’s an easy cop-out, but it’s one that keeps surfacing.

Wolf: Look, John McCain and I had a very public falling-out, but as I’ve said before, I’ve never seen a 30-inch Sony listed as a murder weapon. He’s one of the chief recipients of [National Rifle Assn.] money. If he really wants to do something about violence in this country, get handguns off the street.

Boucher: In 1997, when your exchanges with McCain peaked, you invited him to debate on national television and he declined. Did the two of you ever end up talking about this in person?

Wolf: It was pretty funny. This last spring I went to Washington for the White House Correspondents’ Dinner, and there was this reception beforehand and McCain was there. My wife walked over and said, “Senator, I don’t think you’ve met my husband.” We said hello and it was very pleasant. And he looked at me and said, “Well, you’ve been having a lot better spring than I have.” [laughs]

Rubin: You know, with the election, it was really interesting how Hollywood got behind Lieberman. I was shocked. This guy was basically coming out and saying, “As soon as I get in, I’m ruining your business.” And still, more support than ever for that ticket. . . . It’s interesting that people’s partisanship goes beyond reasonable or rational thought. . . . It’s like blind faith--they’re not listening to what’s being said.

Boucher: Perhaps they saw similar problems with the Republicans.

Rubin: Well, we’ll see now.

Wolf: Stay tuned.

About This Series

Calendar asked three pairs of arts figures to discuss issues confronting the creators, consumers and purveyors of entertainment and the arts. The topics:

Today: Is free speech being abused in popular culture?

Tuesday: Is L.A.’s diversity creating culture--or a cultural divide?

Wednesday: How will digital technology affect the visual arts?