Reader comments: Public triumph, private torment

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Men's pro sports had nothing to do with Penner's choices. That's a canard. I am a little surprised that the LAT did yet another story on this.

Posted by: buggednot | March 29, 2010 at 05:59 PM

Dear Chris and LA Times,

I want to thank you for the courage it took to research and write a true, nuanced, honest accounting of what happened to Mike/Christine. For many of us in the community, it gives us a bit of peace about what happened to her. I hope you will consider attending the transgender day of remembrance on November 20th, where we honor every year those transgender people who have lost their lives due to hatred/intolerance. I imagine Mike/Christine will be among those we honor.

Hannah

p.s. Chris sorry for not returning your calls!

Posted by: hannahrockstar | March 29, 2010 at 11:00 AMJust as it did from the outset of this desperately sad story, the LA Times continues to exploit Mike Penner by driving web traffic and newspaper sales on the back of his confusion and unhappiness. Not content with that, you also compound the grief and invade the privacy of those he left behind (some of whom still work at the paper). Shame on the writer for being so cavalier with someone else's tragedy but the greater shame is on those who commissioned this tawdry piece in the first place. What a despicable way for a once respected publication to behave.

Posted by: Eleanorpreston | March 29, 2010 at 08:00 PMfourintexas: Being trans is like being left-handed - it's as natural to us as the color of our eyes and hair. just as religious people tried to "cure" left-handed people and failed, there's nothing you can do to "pray away the gay" as we in the TLBG community say.

it's religious-based bigotry which causes transfolk and lesbian and gay people to attempt and complete suicide. I respectfully suggest you find the movies "Prayers for Bobby", "A Girl Like Me: The Gwen Araujo Story", "Soldier's Girl", and "Boys Don't Cry".

Maybe then you can understand if it weren't for bigots who deny us our *humanity*, let alone the equal rights as *guaranteed* by the US Constitution! They depict us as predators ready to molest your little kids if they go into the bathroom, or worse.

It's too bad men's professional sports is so filled with insecurity and cowardice they didn't accept Christine because she violated some "taboo" and transitioned to a "weak" female. Live our lives, little boys... this takes a greater courage than going into battle, because we're opposing a *society*, not a few thousand Taliban or al-Queda fighters.
Posted by: marlenebomer | March 28, 2010 at 07:23 PMIf the Times would ignore this, it would be to ignore what Christine and many others struggle through in society. How does acceptance and understanding grow without a "voyeuristic" light shining? I have a friend struggling with herself (or himself as you would see her) and I worry suicide will be her end as well if the alcohol doesn't do it first. I hope she will get the help she needs to love herself, but the fear of judgement, losing her children, her respect, her pride keeps her in denial, keeps her drinking in hopes of becoming numb and banishing what is inside.

Posted by: letlive42 | March 28, 2010 at 07:07 PMIt seems to me the LA Times leaves itself out of the process of being criticized for their own role. Transition is difficult enough in private, with one's own family, community of friends, and job prospects.

The Times role in encouraging Mike/Christine to publicize her experiences was not helpful to her, but certainly good for Times circulation. The refusal to look at the role of family, spouse, and other relatives is also a huge red flag.

Tell me, LA Times, where was your respect for her privacy? And tell me, where in the hell was her family?

I've always told my children that I will love them no matter what. And I mean it. How can any family abandon their son, daughter, aunt, or uncle, niece or newphew? Where was the family?

Don't blame this all on the transgendered community. I didn't know Christine. But if I had, I would have told her to avoid publicity about her transition in order to live her life in peace, as much as possible.

I know of what I speak, for I too, am a transsexual, like Christine. Someday, the world will grow up.
Posted by: HelenofPeel | March 28, 2010 at 06:49 PMRest in Peace Mike/Christine.
Posted by: Della00 | March 28, 2010 at 05:06 PMThere is a growing body of evidence that a particular region of the brain is different in transgender people than in the cisgender population.

But things don't need to be physical to exist. I am writing in English, and English is not a physical thing, but it certainly exists.

I don't see why we need to prove something is physical for it to be considered as real as physical things are.Additionally, something is real if it has an effect because otherwise something would be uncaused, thus constructs (psychological, social, legal, lemmas in math, etc.) are real when they cause things to happen in the world or people to behave a certain way.

How ever, constructs aren't the opposite of physical
Posted by: CatMushroom | March 28, 2010 at 03:48 PMWith (or, indeed, in) the most unspeakably bad taste, everyone believes that is their place and their right to comment on Mike and/or Christine's life and death.

That these people also choose to comment on the actions of Mike/Christine's family and friends during this time is equally appalling. Mike was clearly a troubled man; Christine was, just as clearly, a troubled woman.

Let them both rest in peace and leave those left behind alone to try and rebuild their lives and deal with their grief. It is not for us to comment and it is not for us judge.

Would that some LA Times feature writers (who appear be acting as little more than voyeurs in the hope of getting a decent spread in the paper) were grown up enough to appreciate that fact.
Posted by: alixramsay | March 28, 2010 at 03:16 PMMike Penner was a fabulous columnist, with a wry sense of humor that Jim Murray would have killed for. Christine Daniels I don't even remember. I wish that either one of them--or both of them--had remembered the phrase, "Get over yourself!".

I wonder how many people in Haiti, Afghanistan, Iraq, or any of the other trouble-spots in the world where life is a continuing challenge have the time or the energy for the concerns that eventually consumed Penner/Daniels.
Posted by: deeaiden | March 28, 2010 at 01:58 PMInteresting to find ... but not surprising ... that you censor comments here.

I wrote nothing disrespectful about this tragic individual ... only commented that GID has no known biological marker and by implication the actual existence of 'transgendered' beyound a psychological construct is debatable.

There are of course, hundreds of individuals who also believe they have been abducted by aliens. Sincere belief on an individual's part that they are transgendered does not prove that there is such a thing ... other than in the minds of those who believe it.
Posted by: calpsych | March 28, 2010 at 12:42 PMTo x15gal: I agree with you that prayer doesn't cure all ills, God cures ALL ills. And when did what a transgender has to go thru become more difficult than what others have to go through? It's all relative--one no more difficult than another.

Being a very religious person or going to church regularly has nothing to with having a deep relationship with God. And, please, what I wrote of is not religious zealotry. (You've used a tact one uses when losing an argument: going from micro to macro).

People cause themselves pain, not the other way around. It's how we respond to stimuli that counts (remember the old "sticks and stones hurt ... but words never)? How do you suppose I've not encountered anything in life that you'd consider a dilemma?

Seriously, how do you think I came to find God. I have all the empathy in the world for the lsot because I once was one. It's sounds corny but it's true.

X15gal, I get the impression you're a kind person-- a bit misguided in the thinking department, but kind nonetheless. All of us will be in either Heaven or hell after we die ... and it'll take us just a split second to realize how foolish we were in this life.

How foolish we didn't follow God enough. How foolish we are to have been blinded by our own simple thoughts and suppossed cures to life's ills. Your words and thoughts, while well-intended, miss the mark and by a wide margin at that.
Posted by: fourintexas | March 28, 2010 at 09:58 AMMike or Christine, his/her Sound and Vision was one of my favorites.
Posted by: hjk78hjk | March 27, 2010 at 10:13 PMthis was a horrible piece of reporting, not worthy of a column one. years ago, this column (along with the paper as a whole through the 90's) could be counted on for old-fashioned, complex journalism with insight, investigation, depth and a deft touch.

this piece read like a bad alt weekly piece, thick with oversimplification and platitudes and thin on facts. i have been waiting for months for the la times to write a proper story on mike/christine, whose death was more-or-less swept under the rug last year.

the times should have held the story if penner's ex-wife and brother, employees of the paper, were unwilling to discuss his life and emotional state prior to, during, and after the transition. it is not a complete story and certainly not a proper portrait of a complex person and a tough situation, one which will become more and more common as the years go on. bummer.

come on la times. mike/christine's story hits close to home, you can do so much better!
Posted by: joshoreck | March 27, 2010 at 09:40 PMWhat a sad story. we can get better at accepting people for who they are regardless. "Different not less." Temple Grandin. Prayers to her family and all friends.
Posted by: debmarst | March 27, 2010 at 09:32 PMI appreciated the article greatly, and frankly, cried the whole way through. I can't know exactly what pushed Christine over the final edge, but I identified with two incredible obstacles she faced.

One, of course is social acceptance of gender dysphoria and transgendered people. The other was her role as a leader and a spokesperson for what is still a nascent movement.

My own life experience, although different than Christine's, isolates me and presents me with many of the same difficulties transgendered people face. Within my community, I am outspoken, and people look to me as a leader.

In the article someone was quoted as saying that everyone wanted a part of Christine. This double burden, the lack of acceptance in society at large, coupled with the isolation and loneliness of being thrust out in front of a burgeoning movement, is far too much for most people to bear.

I cried reading this article because I don't want to end up like Christine. Sometimes what makes people leaders is also what kills them, a very precise and absolute intolerance for the status quo.

I want people everywhere to know, we are social animals, some basic community acceptance is paramount to survival. The inability of average people to make the smallest sacrifice in bending long held beliefs, can be lethal to others... lethal. Please, consider it.
Posted by: Delivas | March 27, 2010 at 08:57 PMI feel I must comment concerning the idea that if Mike had just prayed to Jesus he never would have had to transition to Christine, and would have been happy. Since the poster obviously did not know Christine (or Mike), and obviously has no clue about what a transgender person is and has to go through, I will forgive their idea that prayer could have cured all her ills.

In the specific case of Christine/Mike, she happened to be a very religious person, who did accept God and Jesus, and attended church regularly. However, it was a lot of the religious zealotry out there from others that caused her so much pain, and was a large part of her inability to maintain her transition to who she really was. In short, religious intolerance and bigotry by those who do not want to accept anyone different than themselves that happens to be one of the factors that led to her death.

It is very lucky that this poster has not had to face any dilemma like this in their lives, as they would then fully understand what this is all about. It is also unfortunate that they do not have any empathy for their fellow human beings, and for the fact that our species is a rich and diverse one. No cookie-cutters here!

It is time to stop foisting your values on everyone else, and to allow people to be who they know who they are. I believe your book says something about "Judge not, lest you be judged."
Posted by: x15gal | March 27, 2010 at 07:53 PMThis article just confirms what everyone who understands GID suspected all along when she decided to de-transition. It was not that she had changed her mind, but self doubt about her ability to pull it off and having to deal with the constant pressure of trying to fit into everyone else's narrow view of what defines a man and woman.

Its kind of sad to see the comments that were constantly made about how she wasn't a beautiful woman. She was 61, well past the prime of even the most attractive men and women. And its not like she went from being a super handsome man to being an ugly troll of a woman. She may have not been a vision of beauty as a woman, but I would say she was still more attractive as a woman than she was as a man.

The standard of beauty she was being compared to was completely unrealistic, as is always the case for transwomen. Instead of being compared to average women of their age/background, they are automatically compared to models and actresses that no woman can match. The more society pounces on trans people, the more they will suppress their real identity, leaving a life of self-hatred, which will eventually destroy them and everything they care about. Let people live a life of being honest to themselves, and stop being so judgmental of everyone who is different, since you cannot even begin to understand.
Posted by: phxchrisj | March 27, 2010 at 07:18 PMThis was a well-reported and beautifully written story that had me in tears at the end. I'm sorry for Mike/Christine's family and friends, but most of all sorry for him/her. He/she must have been in deep emotional pain that none of us can understand or judge. R.I.P.
Posted by: ATLtransplant| March 27, 2010 at 05:33 PMI repeat part of what I wrote to the Times last November on learning of my friend Christine's death:

"Christine and I , and many others in the Los Angeles Transgender community, became friends in 2007. I remember her gentleness, and her simple beauty, how calmly and seemlessly she seemed to have transitioned from male to female.

Being the child of a late and renouned sports writer who wrote for some time for the old Times/Mirror Sports section, I was familiar with the macho-like atmosphere that prevaded press boxes in the days of Jim Murray and Braven Dwyer Jr.

My experience as a child allowed me to appreciate, perhaps more than some of my Transgender friends, the courage that Christine displayed in coming out on the job.

I especially recall her writing in her blog that "Mike was always a part of Christine, but Christine is so much larger than Mike could ever be". I also swelled with pride when I read Christine's front page interview with Vince Scully.

In 2008 Christine suddenly stopped attending Transgender events. Late that year I was bewildered to see her column appearing again, under her old male name, "Mike Penner".

Whatever the cause of Christine's torments, I regret that I was unable to reach her, to help my sister whom I was privileged to know for only a short time.

Christine, we hardley knew you, and how we will miss you!"
Posted by: Trannymomma | March 27, 2010 at 05:05 PMWhy keep mentioning "pearls". I don't believe that a transsexual thinks that pearls are what makes a woman. A wig is essential for transition, but pearls...nope. It seems like a cliche. To the writer: Tell Christine/Mike's story, with dignity. If the pearls are true, I'm wrong. But I find it hard to believe with all the jokes in the gay and transsexual world about pearls that they would be essential to coming out.
Posted by: sayrich | March 27, 2010 at 03:21 PMYa know, my heart bleeds for Mike, for his anguish, for his torment, for his feelings of having no hope, etc.. But not for the obvious reason. For Mike was never Christine--he was always Mike. Had he simply prayed to God for understanding, love, guidance, etc., he'd have all the hope in the world to continue living.

I know this sounds easily done, but it isn't. But, it is 100% that it'll work--every single time. I fault to a point the do-gooders in society that seek a way out that is never that. For their ways are never The Way. I don't want to sound harsh but I'm less concerned with feelings (or, "style") at present and more concerned with one's soul ("substance").

Try what you will in life ... but if you don't have a deep and abiding relationship with Christ, you can never be considered a success in this life -- no matter what others say. Do you disagree with me? Consider the life of one tortured soul name Mike who tried to become Christine -- something he never was. May Mike rest in peace. Let us all learn from Mike's example of how not to live life.
Posted by: fourintexas | March 27, 2010 at 02:39 PMI didn't know Christine's story, thank you for writing it. I think it's an important story for people to know. Telling it helps to eliminate the stigma that society places on the LGBT community. Because of Christine's story, perhaps others can find peace within themselves through acceptance. My heart goes out to Christine, I hope she's found her happiness.
Posted by: maiapapaya | March 27, 2010 at 02:29 PMMy heart goes out to his family and friends who lost a talents, yet tortured, soul. I had heard about his change but not his suicide, but what is the purpose of this Times article now? I missed "the hook". Also, what purpose does this serve if it only opens the wounds of his family - who seem to work in the same place that is doing this to him. They obviously didn't agree with this and so why did the Times run it?
Posted by: man6126 | March 27, 2010 at 01:42 PM