POP MUSIC : Resurrection of the ‘Kings of Rap’

“I read something (in The Times) last year that wasn’t too good,” Joseph Simmons, the frisky leader of Run-DMC, says sharply at the start of an interview. “I think you said something like we were . . . passe. Yeah, that’s the word . . . passe .”

Two years ago, the remark could have led to an awkward pause, because Run-DMC was all but counted out in the fast-changing world of rap, where a demanding, young, hard-core audience is constantly searching for new voices that capture the spirit of the moment.

Even though the New York trio emerged in the mid-’80s as the first superstar rap group, sales of 1990’s “Back From Hell” album barely reached 500,000--down from the 4-million peak of 1986’s “Raising Hell,” which contained their trailblazing version of Aerosmith’s “Walk This Way.”

The problem was that Run-DMC’s sound had become dated. Where the group once helped set the tone for both fashion (its gangsta look predated the rise of rap’s gangsta sound) and music (a focus on everyday urban life), its later records lacked the vitality to compete against the social bite of Ice Cube or the expanded boundaries of Arrested Development or P.M. Dawn. But now Simmons can joust playfully. Run-DMC is suddenly hot again.

“Well, I guess we were passe last year, since we didn’t have a hit,” Simmons, 28, says in a more conciliatory tone as he continues the interview on the eve of the release of the group’s new album. Titled “Down With the King,” it features collaborations with such other rap forces as Pete Rock & C. L. Smooth, EPMD and Public Enemy ally Hank Shocklee and his Bomb Squad. (See review, Page 60.)

The first single from the album, also titled “Down With the King,” has jumped to No. 1 on the nation’s rap charts, and the Source magazine, the rap bible, has put the trio on its cover in a photo that showcases the group’s new shaved-head look.

Adding to the momentum, Run-DMC, which also includes Darryl McDaniels and Jason Mizell, has been on tour with hotshot group Naughty by Nature. Rolling Stone magazine reports that Run-DMC is stealing the show.

In the interview, Simmons spoke about the rise of Run-DMC, its fall from grace and its recovery.

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Question: How did you feel when the pop world started writing you guys off? Bitter?

Answer: I wouldn’t say bitter, but maybe angry because I thought it was unfair. I didn’t think it showed enough respect for our position in the music business. People wouldn’t write off Patti LaBelle just because she didn’t have a hit. The same with Prince. They didn’t like his movies and they may have complained about them, but they didn’t say he was through. They didn’t say his talent was gone. The way I see it is that if you make over three or four hit albums you must have talent, and that talent won’t just vanish.

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Q: Why do you think people were so quick to count you out?

A: I think most of it was just another (slap) at rap. . . . You know, people always saying it wasn’t going to last and all that.

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Q: How did you feel during that period? Were you worried that your career was over?

A: No, I felt like we could re-establish ourselves. Life can’t always go straight up, because what goes up sometimes has to come down. We had some hard times, like anybody else. But I didn’t ever think about giving up.

I like to think of us as someone like Stevie Wonder or Prince, who has had success over a long period of time. And this is like 10 years for us, 1983 to 1993. I’m not sure that we’ll always have hit records, but I think we are always capable of having hit records, and I think there’ll always be a Run-DMC.

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Q: Did the rejection shake your confidence?

A: No, me and D (McDaniels) just gave ourselves to the Lord. People always say, “Yeah, when you go down, you always run to God.” Well, that’s what he’s there for. We know he put us here to do something. He gave us the talent to be musicians, rappers. So, me and D went and tightened our bonds with God, and that brought us back. We are “born-again” Christians.

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Q: Is that what “Down With the King” is all about?

A: Yes, “Down With the King” means we are down with God. People talk about us being the kings of rap--and I see what they are saying. I don’t think anybody has ever been as big as Run-DMC or meant as much to rap as Run-DMC, and there’s some other rappers calling us the king in the video. But we are saying that God is the real king.

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Q: Do you think you had taken your success and music for granted?

A: Oh, definitely. When you start off with your first record and everything falls into place . . . the concerts are filled, the press is there waiting for you. We might have taken it for granted.

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Q: Was it humbling when you went from playing arenas back to clubs?

A: Sure, it was a big drop. But we worked on developing our new show, getting into our craft. We are much better live now than before. We’d had so many hits that we would blow everyone else away when we would do a show. That was great for our confidence.

We’d do “Sucker M.C.’s,” “King of Rock” and “It’s Like That” and hit after hit, and even if people weren’t buying the new album, they were saying, “We love you.” That helped give us a renewed spirit.

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Q: What do you think of “Back From Hell” in retrospect? Do you think it was a good album?

A: I think the problem is we didn’t have, I guess, the new flavor. We were still trying to produce things ourselves. We weren’t changing with the times. Even Prince changes. He went out and got a new band and everything. Maybe we needed to hang out with some other new guys, Pete Rock & C. L. Smooth, and that’s what we did.

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Q: Why the shaved head--and what about the old gold chains and hats?

A: It’s just something we did. Just as you can’t expect to wear bell-bottoms and platform shoes forever. We were tired of the gold chains and the hats. We were rolling with the flavor.

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Q: What about the idea of Run-DMC as the kings of rap? Are you proud of your influence--the way you opened so many doors?

A: I think we opened the door for all of rap. We didn’t invent it, the way some people say. But we showed the way for a lot of people.

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Q: Looking back, what do you think was your biggest contribution?

A: I think one thing was showing people that they could just be themselves. You didn’t have to put on a special costume when you went onstage or make up things in your songs. You could talk about your life, your street. We just came out with our homeboy dress, and people loved it. My main contribution to some groups, like Public Enemy, was our stage show. To us, the main thing is bring your deejay onstage and actually use the records.

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Q: What about the gangsta look? Was it planned?

A: No, that’s just what we wore normally. There was no strategy. I remember someone said you have to go out and buy an outfit before you go onstage, and Russell Simmons (Joseph’s brother and the group’s manager) said, “Don’t do that. Just wear what you have.”

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Q: Looking back at the riot at your concert in 1986 at the Long Beach Arena, were you afraid that could end your career?

A: That really was a problem. They tried to blame it all on us, but there was always fighting going on in the world. I don’t feel like rap inspires violence any more than hockey or other sports or Arnold Schwarzenegger movies. I tried to say, “Look, I make records that are positive . . . about staying in school and stuff. It’s not my fault that I came into L.A. and the gang fight broke out.” There were no gang fights in New York. I just left Madison Square Garden and it didn’t happen. I didn’t know about the Crips and the Bloods.

I remember Tipper Gore’s group saying that Run-DMC incites violence. I wanted to say, “Listen to the records first, lady.” Sure, that could have killed our career, and it did stick with us for a long time. People were always nervous when we came to town to do a concert.

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Q: What about other groups? What did you think of Public Enemy and its emphasis on politics and black pride?

A: I loved them. Without Public Enemy, there would have been no Malcolm X movie. From what I can see, they set the whole climate for Spike Lee to make his movie. They are the ones who focused again on black power and all that.

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Q: What about N.W.A. and Ice Cube and the gangsta-rap style?

A: I liked it. It was cool. I feel like N.W.A. talked about what they saw in the ‘hood, not necessarily (that) they would do a drive-by shooting or that they were these gangsters . . . just that they saw it, they lived around it. To me, it was like them saying, “Hey, New York, hey, world, this is what is going on around L.A. This is what we see every day.” It was informative . . . and it was good.

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Q: Are you interested in any of the new alternative rap groups?

A: I love the spirituality of Arrested Development. I also think their music is fun and uplifting. They let kids know you can talk about everything you want on a rap record and that you can even sing a little bit.

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Q: What about the future?

A: Longevity is the goal. People asked me in ’83 what I’d be doing three years from now, and they didn’t believe me when I said we’d still be around, making music. Well, it has been 10 years now. I hope “Down With the King” is a turning point. I hope the question will never have to be asked again.