N.Y. Schools Chief Links Inner-City Ills to Poverty, Loss of Hope : Dismissed Chancellor Joseph Fernandez contends that most districts in urban areas are facing similar problems.

New Yorkers vote today in a hotly contested local school board election--a race pitting some candidates supported by religious broadcaster Pat Robertson’s Christian Coalition against liberal groups. In large measure, the election will be a referendum on policies of AIDS education, condom availability and the Rainbow Curriculum initiated by Schools Chancellor Joseph A. Fernandez, who was dismissed in February by the Board of Education after a bitter 4-3 vote. Fernandez, 57, talked in his office with Times New York Bureau Chief John J. Goldman about his job, which ends in June, and his legacy.

Question: Are New York’s problems typical of inner-city school systems throughout the nation?

Answer: New York, as you know, is the largest school system in the country. We will probably hit a million students this year . . . . The problems are very similar in most urban areas. You have a growing disparity between the haves and the have nots. Many of the problems schools face are directly related to poverty. They are directly related to people not seeing any kind of hope at the end of the tunnel, the inability of people to get housing and jobs and good health services. All of that impacts the schools.

I recently looked at a survey done in California that said the biggest problem in the mid-1950s was chewing gum, speaking out of turn. Today the biggest problems in our schools are guns, weapons, dealing with substance abuse and gangs.

Q: To what degree are urban teachers unappreciated?

A: I think tremendously. If you look at the disparity between urban centers and the surrounding areas, you’ll see per student expenditures (in the suburbs) are generally higher, you’ll see the class sizes are generally smaller, you’ll see the facilities are generally in better condition. Teachers in urban centers, more often than not . . . take money out of their own pockets to buy supplies or materials. I think they’re unsung heroes.

Q: Are inner-city students as eager to learn today as when you attended school in Harlem?

A: We almost have a self-fulfilling prophecy with these kids. We as educators somewhere along the line started to lower standards because we were dealing with “non-traditional” students . . . . We’re going back to trying to make the curriculum more rigorous. But I believe, and I think that most educators would believe, that immigrant kids, minority kids, whether they be African-American, Latino, can perform. But you’ve got to give them that level playing field. It’s not fair for these kids to be in larger classes. It’s not fair for these kids not to have access to the latest technology . . . it’s not fair that we’re spending less per student than they are in the suburban areas. That’s what’s happening in every damn state in this union.

Q: Why do you believe the Rainbow Curriculum is so important?

A: There is a lot of misinformation about it . . . you know, the glitzy headlines, “Curriculum teaching homosexuality,” which is the furthest thing from the truth. In every city in this country, probably in every village, there is some kind of intolerance going on--whether it’s ethnic intolerance, religious intolerance, intolerance about gays. We’d like to think the traditional family is the norm. That’s not the case. Most of my kids don’t come from that setting. As many as 60% of my kids come from a single-parent home . . . . We know a lot of children come from grandmothers raising them, surrogate parents and we know some children come from gay families.

Kids don’t come to us in the first grade and the second grade with built-in biases. They learn that from us. And I believe very strongly that if you start teaching children early about tolerance and about compassion that they’ll be O.K. . . . So we developed a curriculum . . . about tolerance related to ethnicity, related to religion, related to gender, related to sexual orientation, related to handicapped conditions.

Q: What were your expectations when you became chancellor?

A: I had a lot of excitement . . . . I was coming here to shake up the system. That was a clear understanding of the board that hired me. There were going to be some nasty fights. And those fights caught up with me.

Q: To what degree have your expectations been met?

A: We’ve had, since I’ve been here, $750 million worth of cuts--more than 10% of our budget. And we have been able . . . pretty much to maintain and keep the pain out of the classroom--somewhat, not totally . . . . We’ve flattened this administration. When I got here there were 5,200 people working here. Now there are fewer than 3,400. We did that intentionally.

We put in a lot of initiatives. I have over 280 site-based management schools. We’ve opened up 15 small high schools, we’re going to open about a total of 51 of them. These are all tremendous collaborations . . . . We’ve done some unique things with religious organizations. We’re opening up collaborative schools with them. They are not religious schools, but there’s an affiliation.

We’ve increased graduation requirements. We have the best data collection system now, state of the art stuff. You can look at a profile of every school.

We’ve rooted out a lot of corruption. I mean there is still some out there, but it’s gone underground . . . .

Q: What do you think needs to be done in the L.A. school system.

A: Keep in mind that some of my knowledge is several years old, so it’s not current. But, obviously, labor relations has to be a key piece. Somehow, you have to bring some stability to labor relations. And it’s easier said than done. It’s tough when you have a very bad budget.

People seem to forget that negotiations are a quid pro quo, and I am a big believer that you have to treat teachers like professionals. You have to treat . . . principals as professionals. By the same token, I am a big believer that you have to bring more people into the tent. I do not have a lot of patience for school administrators who feel that you shouldn’t have community-based organizations.

If you have people that feel good about their jobs, are getting decent salaries, working conditions are good, that translates into what goes on in the classrooms. California is experimenting with charter schools. I’d jump at that . . . . The opportunity to structure schools the way you think they should be . . . without a lot of central control, I think is a tremendous opportunity.

Q: Was decentralization in retrospect a mistake in New York?

A: I wasn’t around when it happened. I understand the fervor and the reasons . . . . I think the intention of decentralization was a good one . . . . I think the intent of decentralization was to put more power into the hands of the people. Some of our experiences here are that hasn’t been the case . . . . It’s put power sometimes in the hands of petty politicians who have abused that power either through giving out jobs or even fattening their own pockets.

Q: What lessons did you learn as chancellor?

A: I think if you come in as a reformer . . . you’re changing the status quo. Whenever you do that . . . you create a resentment to what you’re doing. If there are enough of those pockets, a critical mass develops. Everything you do as a reformer is hard.

Q: Are critics wrong when they charge you failed to appreciate New York’s complex political and educational tapestry?

A: I just don’t agree with that . . . . We were sensitive. Look at our legislative record. I got rid of building tenure for principals, which they told me it couldn’t be done before I got here, I got rid of the Board of Examiners (which ruled on the qualifications of prospective teachers), which they told me couldn’t be done.

Q: Would you have done anything different?

A: No.

Q: What’s the biggest task your successor faces?

A: The person that comes here . . . has to make sure that their agenda is the same as the board’s agenda . . . . Before I came here, the board that hired me knew exactly what my agenda was, and they knew exactly what pain it was going to be with some of the things.

Q: Do all inner-city school superintendents sit on a very hot seat?

A: The hardest part of my job was having to go to a hospital and face the parents of a kid that has just been shot or killed in school. There’s no training in the world that shows you how to deal with that. It’s very hard. You don’t know what to say. What do you say? You’re sorry? . . . . You try to console them, but it’s the hardest thing. I never want to do that again.

Times researcher Audrey Britton contributed to this story.