Excerpts Show an Intern Under the Spell of Older 'Friend'

L.A. Times Archives

Oct. 3, 1998 12 AM PT

These are excerpts from about 20 hours of tapes Pentagon employee Linda Tripp secretly recorded during her conversations with former White House intern Monica S. Lewinsky during a period of several months.

The Paula Corbin Jones Affidavit

Tripp: Can I ask you something?

Lewinsky: Yeah.

Tripp: Are you bound and determined to do what you plan to do?

Lewinsky: Uh-huh.

Tripp: . . . You are, you are positive in your heart that you want to do that? I mean . . .

Lewinsky: Uh-huh.

Tripp: I’m only saying--I’m only saying that in case you should change your mind.

Lewinsky: No. I-I-I-first of all, for fear of my life.

Tripp: Yeah.

Lewinsky: I would not. For fear of my life, I would not--I would not cross these--these people for fear of my life, No. 1.

Tripp: That’s a terrible thing.

Lewinsky: But, No. 2, I--some people would see if differently. I look at that woman with such loathe and disgust.

Tripp: I know.

Lewinsky: I would--there is nothing I would do to help her. And saying it would just help her.

Tripp: But--OK. I’m not even concerned with her right now. I’m concerned with us.

Lewinsky: Right, I . . .

Tripp: So . . .

Lewinsky: What--you know, I don’t know how you feel about it . . .

Tripp: She’s out of this, in my opinion.

Lewinsky: Well, yeah and no. But I mean, it’s like, you know, I am saying, you know, I am saying as far as I’m concerned, nothing ever happened.

‘He Forgot Who I Was’

Lewinsky: . . . I just kind of feel like--I feel really cheated, you know. . . . And I said I feel like I’m moving to New York and--because I have to, but it’s not what I would be doing by choice. . . .

. . . She [Lewinsky’s mother] said, “Monica, if you went back there, let alone that all these people are nasty and they’re venomous.” She goes, “You would just--be just as miserable as you are now.” You know, she was like, “He would never see you enough. It would never be enough.”

. . . And there is some truth to that because . . . I was upset, when I worked there, about him. . . .

I was constantly, constantly thinking he forgot who I was. . . .

Tripp: Well, how could he have forgotten who you were when you were seeing him?

Lewinsky: . . . I was crazy, Linda. I mean, it seems to me that it was like if I didn’t see him, then he forgot who I was. . . .

And if he didn’t call, he forgot who I was. . . .

And I really--I really felt like, oh, there’s a different girl every day, and he was gonna forget. You know, I mean, when this first happened, I mean, I said to my mom, I said, “Well, I think he just fooled around with me because his girlfriend was probably furloughed.”

Tripp: You idiot.

Lewinsky: I’m not kidding you. That’s what I thought.

Tripp: Oh, my God. Monica . . .

Lewinsky: So, I don’t know. It’s just--you know, and she’s right. She’s right. It would be--I mean, I would get to see him more. I think I’d have more time with him.

‘I Hate Him for It’

Tripp: . . . The whole thing is--is so just fundamentally unfair.

Lewinsky: Yep.

Tripp: I mean--I don’t know. I-I-I-hate him for it, but on the other hand, I understand why he would have felt awkward. But I think he owes you that truth. I really do. . . . You know, you’re the type of person who would accept that, you know, if he were frank with you.

Lewinsky: . . . I think--I think that--and I think you’ve said this, too, but I think part of him wanted to bring me back because he promised me, he felt bad about what happened. But I think a big part of him didn’t.

Tripp: . . . I think he has a problem. And I think he knows he has a problem. And I think he knows that faced with temptation, with a willing partner that he finds sexy, he would not be able to mend his ways. And whether or not he’s mending his ways on the road or any other place, I believe him when he says he wants to behave to a certain extent because . . .

Lewinsky: I think he talked himself out of even being attracted to me. I really do.

Tripp: Really?

Lewinsky: Uh--there is just like nothing there. I mean, it’s just weird, because there was something there last month, but there was nothing there the other night. . . .

Tripp: It--it’s unfair. To everybody. I mean, it’s just stupid. If it had been me, I would have--I would have begged you not to go for that 60-second visit.

Lewinsky: Because I didn’t know it was gonna be 60 seconds.

Tripp: Yeah, true.

Lewinsky: You know? I--I thought it would be 15 minutes. So all right. I’m going to bed. . . .

I don’t see how like, you know I don’t feel like anybody is saying, “Gee you know I am really sorry this happened. I am really sorry. You got really [redacted] over, and it’s someone’s fault.”

Tripp: Well maybe he feels maybe he has made himself feel that the fact that his people got you a job at the Pentagon . . .

Lewinsky: Huh.

Tripp: Means that you were taken care of, kind of thing.

Lewinsky: I, I . . .

Tripp: I mean it was more money, right?

Lewinsky: Um, a little bit, but not much. Part of it was . . .

Tripp: But you didn’t--the good thing is you didn’t have to take a loss.

Lewinsky: No. . . . But I mean who can, who can put a price, I mean you know this. . . . Who can put a price on working there? I mean, I was thinking when I was in New York I will never work in a place as beautiful. . . . I will never work in as a prestigious place. . . .

‘Nervous About Vernon’

Lewinsky: I’m just--I’m starting to get a little nervous about Vernon.

Tripp: Why?

Lewinsky: I don’t know. I, uh, I think--I just want everything to be easy. I want him to call me and say, “You know, how does this amount of money, doing this here sound?” And I say, “That sounds great.” He says, “OK. Consider it a done deal.”

Tripp: Mm-hmm.

Lewinsky: You know? And then I get some call from personnel, whatever the place is, and, “We understand you’re joining our staff,” you know? . . .

Tripp: . . . Well, I’m just saying, you know, you can also hold his feet to the fire just a little bit if--if what he comes up with doesn’t appeal to you, he--there are many choices there. . . .

Lewinsky: Yeah.

Tripp: The ultimate thing is if this is your last hurrah, you’d better get something out of it that’s--you know, that you can stick with. Because this is a good steppingstone. It’s not many times that you’re going to have someone of that stature opening a door for you.

Lewinsky: Yeah. . . . I just wish I didn’t have all this emotional stuff. I wish I could be like him. [Redacted]

Tripp: Oh, I’m so glad you’re not.

Lewinsky: . . . I guarantee you he has not gone through one ounce of pain having to do with me in the past six, seven months. He just--threw it all away, you know?

Tripp: And, of course, we don’t know any of that.

Lewinsky: Well, you know what . . .

Tripp: Well, we don’t. You always say we don’t, and we don’t know.

Lewinsky: Linda, you know? What good is--what good is whatever it is, whatever it is--if he feels anything, what good is it, because he doesn’t act on it? So it’s nothing.

Tripp: Well, he stopped acting on it.

Lewinsky: Well--you know. But I just got mad today when I started thinking about all of the times, you know, that it’s like--Betty didn’t get to him.

Tripp: Hah . . .

Lewinsky: But, you know, the flip side of it, too, though, Linda, is that it’s like, well, when’s the last time I went there because he wanted to see me on his own? You know?

Tripp: I don’t know.

Lewinsky: February.

Tripp: Really?

Lewinsky: Uh-huh.

Tripp: Yeah, it’s a long time.

Lewinsky: You know? I think--February or maybe March. . . .

Mm-hmm. You know, it’s November.

Tripp: It’s hard to believe.

Lewinsky: It’s hard, you know.

Tripp: (Sigh)

Lewinsky: It’s gonna be hard for a long time. (Sigh)

Tripp: Well, the bright side is that if you do get a wonderful job in New York and get settled in a place and start a new life, that this could be the door that needed to open.

Lewinsky: Yeah.

Tripp: I mean, I believe things happen for a reason, although I have yet to figure out why this happened.

Lewinsky: I can’t figure it out. Nothing really good has come of it.

Tripp: Maybe it’s so that you can tell your grandchildren you had an affair with the you-know-what of the you-know-what.

Lewinsky: . . . I don’t think so. . . . What if your grandma right now told you she had an affair with the president? How vastly would that change your grandma’s life?

Tripp: Nothing.

‘You’re Not a Stalker’

Tripp: . . . He’s 50 years old and he should have known better. And he didn’t have to pay a price--you did. Hugely. So don’t tell me that. I mean you’re not a stalker. You were an invited guest. You know? Hah. Don’t talk to me about that. . . .

It’s like--it makes you sound demented or something. I mean, it makes you, uh, I, that just angers me beyond belief. But it certainly keeps him in the clear. “Hey, we had to get her out of here, she was stalking me.” . . .

Yeah. That part really does anger me because it’s--it’s a--a taint on your integrity and your reputation and your character, all of which is so richly undeserved, it’s--it’s--it’s nauseating.

Lewinsky: Yeah.

Tripp: And, you know, you say what you did was wrong. Well, of course it was wrong, he was a married man. But, I mean, are you making a moral judgment here? I mean, because he’s so far beyond moral judgments. And, in terms of labeling you the stalker, when it was a two-way street, kills me. . . .

‘Mom Is Younger Than He Is’

Tripp: Well, you know, I was thinking that you should be thinking about your finale with him.

Lewinsky: Yeah. But I guess it will have to be--I don’t know, around Christmas.

Tripp: The other thing is, do you want to go to one of those Christmas parties there?

Lewinsky: I don’t know.

Tripp: Because you could probably work an invitation, at the very least.

Lewinsky: Well, you’d think a lot of things at the very least, but--uh . . .

Tripp: I mean, you could take your mom.

Lewinsky: My mom would vomit if she saw him.

Tripp: I know.

Lewinsky: I think she’d smack him. . . . I saw him on like Sunday, and then I said to him, I said, “Oh, look for me at the arrival ceremony on blah, blah, blah. My mom and my aunt are coming.”

Tripp: But he didn’t know which was which.

Lewinsky: No, but he, you know, he said, “I saw them. They’re cute.” And I said, “Shut up.”

Tripp: (Laughing)

Lewinsky: Not that cute. Like, not cuter than me.

Tripp: I wonder what he was thinking?

Lewinsky: How he could do them too.

Tripp: Well, probably thinking it would be more appropriate to do them. I mean, they’re even younger than he is, for God’s sake.

Lewinsky: Right. My mom is younger than he is. . . .

Tripp: . . . Well, what are you gonna wear when you go to--ummm--L.A.

Lewinsky: Well, I have my black uniform. I’ll wear that . . .

Tripp: OK.

Lewinsky: And then I’m gonna wear the navy dress I wore to the radio address that still has the [redacted] on it for Thanksgiving.

Tripp: Well, how--you’re what, you’re gonna get it cleaned?

Lewinsky: Yeah.

Tripp: Oh, God.

Lewinsky: Well, I mean, like I haven’t worn it for a year, you know?

Tripp: Yeah.

Lewinsky: It’s about time. Out with the old, you know?

Tripp: Oh, that’s too bad.

Lewinsky: I know . . .

Tripp: See, I think I would suggest another outfit for the radio address that makes you--I mean, for the radio address--for the Thanksgiving that makes you look so beautiful.

Lewinsky: Well, that dress--I don’t care about pretty; I care about thin. That’s all I care about.

Tripp: Well, OK. And this outfit makes you look thin and beautiful . . .

‘Maybe I’m Being Paranoid’

Tripp: . . . This navy blue dress. Now all I would say to you is: I know how you feel today and I know why you feel the way you do today, but you have a very long life ahead of you. . . . I would rather you had that in your possession if you need it years from now. That’s all I’m gonna say.

Lewinsky: You think that I can hold onto a dress for 10, 15 years with [redacted] from . . .

Tripp: Hey, listen. My cousin is a genetic whatchamacallit . . .

Lewinsky: Uh.

Tripp: . . . and during O.J. Simpson, I questioned all the DNA, and do you know what he told me?

Lewinsky: Huh?

Tripp: . . . He said that on a rape victim now . . . if she has preserved a pinprick size of crusted semen, 10 years from that time, if she takes a wet Q-Tip and blobs it on there . . . they can match the DNA with, absolutely with certainty.

Lewinsky: So why I [sic] can’t I scratch that . . . Off and put it in a plastic bag?

Tripp: You can’t scratch it off. You would have to use a Q-Tip.

And I feel like this is what I would tell my own daughter. . . .

Lewinsky: Well, I’ll think about it. . . .

Tripp: . . . It could be your only insurance policy down the road. Or it could never be needed and you can throw it away.

But I--I never, ever want to read about your going off the deep end because someone comes out and calls you a stalker or something . . . and he confirms it. . . .

Maybe I’m being paranoid. . . .

‘Maybe I’m Crazy’

Lewinsky: I think I just need to start over. But what’s hard for me is that, and I know this is so stupid, but Linda, I don’t know why I have these feelings for him. Maybe I’m crazy. Maybe I don’t really have these feelings. Maybe I’m pretending it. I don’t know. But I just . . .

Tripp: (sigh)

Lewinsky: When I tell you that I--I never expected to feel this way about him. And I am not kidding you.

Tripp: You protect him.

Lewinsky: You know?

Tripp: Every inch of the way.

Lewinsky: I didn’t. I never--and the first time I ever looked into his eyes close up and was with him alone, I saw somebody totally different than I had expected to see. And that’s the person I fell in love with.

Tripp: Yeah.

Lewinsky: And that’s the person that was there on the Fourth of July. And that’s the person that has been there at tender moments. And he’s been distant and vacant for me the past few months.

‘We Didn’t Have Sex’

Tripp: Well, I guess you can count the big creep in a sort of half-assed way.

Lewinsky: Not at all. I never came close to sleeping with him.

Tripp: Why, because you were standing up?

Lewinsky: We didn’t have sex, Linda . . .

Tripp: Well, what do you call it?

Lewinsky: We fooled around.

Tripp: Oh, I don’t know. I think . . . if you get to orgasm, that’s having sex.

Lewinsky: No, it’s not.

Tripp: Yes, it is . . .

Lewinsky: Having sex is having intercourse.

Tripp: Oh, you’ve been around him too long.