Domestic Views Take Center Stage

From the transcript provided by the Federal News Service. Bob Schieffer of CBS was the moderator.

Question: Senator, I want to set the stage for this discussion by asking the question that I think hangs over all of our politics today and is probably on the minds of many people watching this debate tonight. And that is, will our children and grandchildren ever live in a world as safe and secure as the world in which we grew up?

Sen. John F. Kerry: Well, first of all, Bob, thank you for moderating tonight. Thank you, Arizona State, for welcoming us. And thank you to the presidential commission for undertaking this enormous task. We’re proud to be here. Mr. President, I’m glad to be here with you again to share similarities and differences with the American people.

Will we ever be safe and secure again? Yes. We absolutely must be. That’s the goal. Now, how do we achieve it is the most critical component of it. I believe that this president, regrettably, rushed us into a war, made decisions about foreign policy, pushed alliances away, and as a result, America is now bearing this extraordinary burden where we are not as safe as we ought to be....

I can do a better job of waging a smarter, more effective war on terror, and guarantee that we go after the terrorists. I will hunt them down and we’ll kill them, we’ll capture them, we’ll do what’s ever necessary to be safe. But I pledge this to you, America: I will do it in the way that Franklin Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and John Kennedy and others did, where we build the strongest alliances, where the world joins together, where we have the best intelligence, and where we are able, ultimately, to be more safe and secure.

President Bush: Yes, we can be safe and secure if we stay on the offense against the terrorists and if we spread freedom and liberty around the world.

I have got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down Al Qaeda wherever it exists -- and we’re making progress; they’re -- three-quarters of Al Qaeda leaders have been brought to justice -- but to make sure that countries who harbor terrorists are held to account. As a result of securing ourselves and ridding the Taliban out of Afghanistan, the Afghan people had elections this weekend. And the first voter was a 19-year-old woman. Think about that. Freedom is on the march.

Q: Anything to add, Sen. Kerry?

Kerry: Yes. When the president had an opportunity to capture or kill Osama bin Laden, he took his focus off of him, outsourced the job to Afghan warlords, and Osama bin Laden escaped.

Six months after he said Osama bin Laden must be caught dead or alive, this president was asked, “Where’s Osama bin Laden?” He said, “I don’t know. I don’t really think about him very much. I’m not that concerned.”

We need a president who stays deadly focused on the real war on terror.

Bush: Gosh, I’d -- I don’t think I ever said I’m not worried about Osama bin Laden. That’s kind of one of those exaggerations. Of course we’re worried about Osama bin Laden. We’re on the hunt after Osama bin Laden. We’re using every asset at our disposal to get Osama bin Laden.

My opponent said this war is a matter of intelligence and -- and law enforcement. No, this is a -- war is a matter of using every asset our -- at our disposal to keep the American people protected.

Q: Let’s go to a new question.... You know, there are all kind of statistics out there, but I want to bring it down to an individual. Mr. President, what do you say to someone in this country who has lost his job to someone overseas who’s being paid a fraction of what that job paid here in the United States?

Bush: I say: Bob, I’ve got policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st century. And here’s some help for you to go get an education; here’s some help for you to go to a community college. We’ve expanded trade adjustment assistance. We want to help pay for you to gain the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century.

You know, there’s a lot of talk about how to keep the economy growing, and we talk about fiscal matters. But perhaps the best way to keep jobs here in America and to keep this economy growing is to make sure our education system works. I went to Washington to solve problems, and I saw a problem in the public education system in America. They were just shuffling too many kids through the system year after year, grade after grade, without learning the basics. And so we said let’s raise the standards -- we’re spending more money, but let’s raise the standards and measure early and solve problems now before it’s too late.

You know, education is how to help the person who’s lost a job. Education is how to make sure this -- we’ve got a workforce that’s productive and competitive. You’ve got -- four more years, I’ve got more to do to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers in school districts that are working.

Kerry: I want you to notice how the president switched away from jobs and starting talking about education principally.

Let me come back in one moment to that, but I want to speak for a second, if I can, to what the president said about fiscal responsibility. Being lectured by the president on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law and order in this country. This president has taken a $5.6-trillion surplus and turned it into deficits as far as the eye can see. Healthcare costs for the average American have gone up 64%. Tuitions have gone up 35%. Gasoline prices, up 30%. Medicare premiums went up 17% a few days ago.

Prescription drugs are up 12% a year.

But guess what, America. The wages of Americans have gone down, the jobs that are being created in Arizona right now [are] paying about $13,700 less than the jobs that we’re losing.

And the president just walks on by this problem.

Q: Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?

Bush: You know, Bob, I don’t know. I just don’t know. I do know that we have a choice to make in America, and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. It’s important that we do that. I also know in a free society people -- consenting adults can live they way they want to live, and that’s to be honored.

But as we respect someone’s rights and we, you know, profess tolerance, we shouldn’t change -- or have to change our basic views on the sanctity of marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it’s very important that we protect marriage as an institution between a man and a woman.

Kerry: We’re all God’s children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney’s daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she’s being who she was, she’s being who she was born as.

I think if you talked to anybody, it’s not choice. I’ve met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage, because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it. And I’ve met wives who are supportive of their husbands, or vice versa, when they finally sort of broke out and -- and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them. I think we have to respect that.

The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman.

Q: Sen. Kerry, a new question for you. The New York Times reports that some Catholic archbishops are telling their church members that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman’s right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research. What is your reaction to that?

Kerry: I respect their views. I completely respect their views. I am a Catholic and I grew up learning how to respect those views, but I disagree with them, as do many. I believe that I can’t legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn’t share that article of faith. I believe that choice is a woman’s choice. It’s between a woman, God and her doctor, and that’s why I support that.

Now I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade. The president has never said whether or not he would do that, but we know from the people he’s tried to appoint to the court he wants to. I will not. I will defend the right of Roe v. Wade.

Bush: I think it’s important to promote a culture of life. I think a hospitable society is a society where every being counts and every person matters. I believe the ideal world is one in which every child is protected in law and welcomed to life. I understand there’s great differences on this issue of abortion, but I believe reasonable people can come together and put good law in place that will help reduce the number of abortions....

What I am saying is, is that as we promote life and promote a culture of life; surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number of abortions. Continue to promote adoption laws. That’s a great alternative to abortion. Continue to fund and promote maternity group homes.

I will continue to promote abstinence programs.

Q: We all know that Social Security is running out of money and it has to be fixed. You have proposed to fix it by letting people put some of the money collected to pay benefits into private savings accounts, but the critics are saying that’s going to mean finding a trillion dollars over the next 10 years to continue paying benefits as those accounts are being set up. So where do you get the money?

Bush: Bob, first let me make sure that every senior listening today understands that when we’re talking about reforming Social Security that they’ll still get their checks. I remember the 2000 campaign and people saying if George W. gets elected your check will be taken away. Well, people got their checks and they will continue to get their checks.

There is a problem for our youngsters, a real problem, and if we don’t act today the problem will be valued in the trillions. And so I think we need to think differently. We’ll honor our commitment to our seniors, but for young -- for our children and our grandchildren, we need to have a different strategy. And recognizing that, I called together a group of our fellow citizens to study the issue. It was a committee chaired by the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York, a Democrat, and they came up with a variety of ideas for people to look at.

I believe that younger workers ought to be allowed to take some of their own money and put it into a personal savings account because I understand that they need to get better rates of return than the rates of return being given in the current Social Security trust. And the compounding rate of interest effect will make it more likely that the Social Security system is solvent for our children and our grandchildren.

Kerry: You just heard the president say that young people ought to be able to take money out of Social Security and put it in their own accounts. Now, my fellow Americans, that’s an invitation to disaster. The CBO said very clearly that if you were to adopt the president’s plan, there will be a $2-trillion hole in Social Security because today’s workers pay into the system for today’s retirees. And the CBO said -- that’s the Congressional Budget Office; it’s bipartisan -- they said that there would have to be a cut in benefits of 25 [%] to 40%.

Now, the president has never explained to America, ever, hasn’t done it tonight, where does the transitional money, that $2 trillion, come from? He’s already got $3 trillion, according to the Washington Post, of expenses that he’s put on the line from his convention and the promises of this campaign, none of which are paid for. Not one of them are paid for. The fact is that the president is driving the largest deficits in American history. He’s broken the pay-as-you-go rules.

Q: Let’s go to a new question, Mr. President. I got more e-mail this week on this question than any other question, and it is about immigration. I’m told that at least 8,000 people cross our borders illegally every day. Some people believe this is a security issue, as you know. Some believe it’s an economic issue. Some see it as a human rights issue. How do you see it, and what do we need to do about it?

Bush: I see it as a serious problem. I see it as a security issue. I see it as an economic issue. And I see it as a human rights issue.

We are increasing the border security of the United States. We’ve got 1,000 more Border Patrol agents on the southern border. We’re using new equipment. We’re using unmanned vehicles to spot people coming across. And we’ll continue to do so over the next four years. It’s a subject I’m very familiar with. After all, I was a border governor for a while.

Many people are coming to this country for economic reasons. They’re coming here to work. If you can make 50 cents in the heart of Mexico, for example, or make $5 here in America, $5.15, you’re going to come here if you’re worth your salt, if you want to put food on the table for your families.... . And so in order to take pressure off the border, in order to make the borders more secure, I believe there ought to be a temporary worker card that allows a willing worker and a willing employer to -- so long as there’s not an American willing to do the job -- to join up in order to be able to fulfill the employer’s needs.

That has the benefit of making sure our employers aren’t breaking the law as they try to fill their workforce needs. It makes sure that the people coming across the border are humanely treated, that they’re not kept in the shadows of our society, that they’re able to go back and forth to see their families. See, the card will have a period of time attached to it.

It also means it takes pressure off the border. If somebody is coming here to work with a card, it means they’re not going to have to sneak across the border. It means our Border Patrol will be more likely to be able to focus on doing their job.

Now, it’s very important for our citizens to also know that I don’t believe we ought to have amnesty.

Kerry: Let me just answer one part of that last question quickly and then I’ll come to immigration.

The American middle-class family isn’t making it right now, Bob, and what the president said about the tax cuts have been wiped out by the increase in healthcare, the increase of gasoline, the increase in tuitions, the increase of prescription drugs. The fact is the take-home pay of a typical American family as a share of national income is lower than it’s been since 1929, and the take-home pay of the richest 0.1% of Americans is the highest it’s been since 1928. Under President Bush, the middle class has seen their tax burden go up and the wealthiest tax burden’s gone down. Now that’s wrong.

Now with respect to immigration reform, the president broke his promise on immigration reform. He said he would reform it. Four years later, he’s now promising you another plan.

Here’s what I’ll do.

No. 1, the borders are more leaking today than they were before 9/11. The fact is we haven’t done what we need to do to toughen up our borders, and I will.

Secondly, we need a guest-worker program, but if it’s all we have it’s not going to solve the problem. The second thing we need is to crack down on illegal hiring. It’s against the law in the United States to hire people illegally, and we ought to be enforcing that law properly.

And thirdly, we need an earned legalization program for people who have been here for a long time, stayed out of trouble, got a job, paid their taxes, and their kids are American. We got to start moving them towards full citizenship out of the shadows.

Q: Let’s go to a new question. For you, Sen. Kerry. Affirmative action. Do you see a need for affirmative action programs, or have we moved far enough along that we no longer need to use race and gender as a factor in school admissions and federal and state contracts and so on?

Kerry: No, Bob, regrettably, we have not moved far enough along. And I regret to say that this administration has even blocked steps that could help us move further along. I’ll give you an example.

I served on the small-business committee for a long time. I was chairman of it once; now I’m the senior Democrat on it. We used to -- you know, we have a goal there for minority set-aside programs to try to encourage ownership in the country. They don’t reach those goals. They don’t even fight to reach those goals. They’ve tried to undo them.

The fact is that in too many parts of our country, we still have discrimination. And affirmative action is not just something that applies to people of color. Some people have a mistaken view of it in America. It also is with respect to women. It’s with respect to other efforts to try to reach out and be inclusive in our country. I think that we have a long way to go, regrettably....

Now let me -- let me just share something. This president is the first president ever, I think, not to -- not to meet with the NAACP. This is a president who hasn’t met with the black congressional caucus. This is a president who has not met with the civil rights leadership of our country. If a president doesn’t reach out and bring people in and be inclusive, then how are we going to get over those barriers? I see that as part of my job as president, and I’ll make my best effort to do it.

Bush: Well, first of all, it’s -- it is just not true that I haven’t met with the black congressional caucus. I met with the black congressional caucus at the White House. And secondly, like my opponent, I don’t agree we ought to have quotas. I agree we shouldn’t have quotas.

But we ought to have an aggressive effort to make sure people are educated; to make sure when they get out of high school, there’s Pell grants available for them, which is what we’ve done. We’ve expanded Pell grants by a million students.

Do you realize today in America we spend $73 billion to help 10 million low- and middle-income families better afford college? That’s the access I believe is necessary, is to make sure every child learns to read, write, add and subtract early; to be able build on that education by going to college, so they can start their careers with a college diploma.