Debate Marked by Sharp Clashes : Dukakis, Bush Spar in Combative Exchanges on Patriotism, Deficit

Pulling no punches, Michael S. Dukakis and George Bush put each other through a fast-moving, combative workout over their many differences Sunday as the presidential campaign took to the greatest stage in American politics, the prime-time television debate.

An estimated 100 million people watched as the next President of the United States and the man-who-won’t-be engaged face-to-face over the inventory of national and global crises.

The two candidates were questioned for 90 minutes on a variety of issues, from drug use to arms control, in a format that called for short answers and rebuttals. Nevertheless, both were able to use the forum to promote their favorite campaign themes. They faced each other on a stage at Wait Chapel on the campus of Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, N.C.

‘Outside the Mainstream’

Dukakis repeatedly attacked Bush’s role in the Iran-Contra affair and in dealing with Panamanian strongman Manuel A. Noriega, while Bush sought to portray Dukakis as liberal with values “outside the mainstream.”

One of Bush’s attacks, on Dukakis’ veto of a bill requiring teachers in Massachusetts to lead the Pledge of Allegiance, brought one of the sharpest exchanges.

“He is out there out of the mainstream. . . . My argument with the governor is, do we want this country to go that far left. . . . The liberals do not like me to talk about liberal . . . I hope people don’t think that I’m questioning his patriotism,” Bush said.

Dukakis fought back: “Well, I hope this is the first and last time I have to say this. Of course the vice president is questioning my patriotism. I don’t think there is any question about that. And I resent it. I resent it.”

The two also exchanged some quips that presumably were prepared ahead of time to drop into the debate. The first occurred on the subject of the national debt.

Dukakis questioned Bush’s sincerity about bringing down the budget defict, which has soared in the last eight years. “He seems to want to spend a great deal of money on just about every weapons system. . . . He want to give the wealthiest taxpayers in this country a five-year, $40-billion tax break. If he keeps this up, he is going to be the Joe Isuzu of American politics.”

Bush shot back: “Is this time to unleash our one-liners? That answer was about as clear as Boston Harbor,” a reference to Dukakis’ record as governor of Massachusetts.

The debate began on domestic issues, and Dukakis and Bush had this to say:

HOUSING

Dukakis: “We need some funds, and we have to be prepared to provide those funds. It will require some choices. Mr. Bush wants to spend billions and trillions on ‘Star Wars.’ Well, that’s a choice we have to make, isn’t it? Do we spend money on weapons systems in the billions and trillions, or is providing some decent affordable housing for the families of this country something that isn’t at least as important. . . . “

Bush: “I think the governor is blurring housing and the homeless. When you talked to those bankers (about housing), did they discuss where interest rates were when your party controlled the White House? The day (Reagan took the oath of office) they were 21.5%--and how does that grab you for increasing housing?”

DRUGS

Bush: “I think we’ve seen a deterioration of values. I think for a while we condoned those things we should have condemned. And one of the things I think we should do about it, in terms of cause, is to instill values into the young people in our schools.”

Dukakis: “I agree with Mr. Bush that values are important. But it’s important that our leaders demonstrate those values from the top. . . . Here we are with a government that’s been dealing with a drug-running Panamanian dictator. . . . He’s been dealing drugs to our kids.”

HEALTH CARE

Dukakis: “I think it’s time that when you get a job in this country it came with health insurance. That’s the way we’re going to provide basic health security for all of the citizens in this country of ours.”

Bush: “There isn’t any such thing as something free out there. It either gets passed along as increased prices, or it gets passed along by people being put out of work so that business can continue to compete.”

Next, the debate shifted to international issues. Some highlights:

EXPERIENCE

Dukakis said he was not, as Bush charges, determined to lead the United States to unilateral disarmament: “Of course not. Of course that’s a charge that’s always made against any governor who runs for the presidency. I think it was one of the things that Mr. Bush said about Mr. Reagan back in 1980. Remember that George?”

Bush: “I’ve met with (Soviet leader) Mr. Gorbachev. I met with (Soviet Foreign Minister) Mr. Shevardnadze and talked substance with him the other day. These people are tough. But now we have a chance if we have the experience to know how to handle it. But please do not go back to the days when the military was . . . weak.”

TERRORISM

Dukakis: “We have to be prepared to use military force against terrorist base camps. . . . We cannot make concessions to terrorists. If you do, you invite the taking of more hostages. . . . It was a very very serious mistake of judgment” (to sell arms to Iran). We can give no quarter when it comes to terrorism.”

Bush: “You judge on the whole record. I’ll make a deal with you. I’ll take the blame for all of that (the Iran-Contra scandal), if you give me half the credit for all the good things this Administration accomplished” in foreign policy.

They also tangled at length and with passion over their respective choices of running mates.

Defends Quayle

“I support my choice for a running mate and I think he’ll do a good job,” said Bush of his controversial No. 2, Indiana Sen. Dan Quayle.

Dukakis, though, said: “I doubt that Dan Quayle is the best person for that job” and said the senator “failed the test” of the ability to lead the nation.

Several times, they turned unexpectedly snappish.

Dukakis awarded his adversary a “gold medal for ridicule” at one point in the debate. Later, Bush made fun of the governor’s recent much-photographed test drive in an Army tank: “I had hoped this would have been a friendlier evening. I wanted to hitchhike a ride home in his tank with him.”

The debate, sponsored by the new bipartisan Commission on Presidential Debates, was the first direct political dialogue between Dukakis and Bush. But during the primary election campaigns, Dukakis participated in 39 debates or forums with his fellow Democrats, while Bush made seven appearances with other GOP candidates.

Which Persona

Endless months of careful policy development and pronouncements by each candidate had preceded the debate, so the buildup to the encounter centered less on what issues would be discussed and more on which Bush and which Dukakis would finally show themselves.

Voters who have closely followed the many turns of the campaign had seen varying shades in each man’s personality, from hard to gentle, from edgy to supremely confident, from downright mean to cool and aloof.

Now, having seen them under the pressure of the nationally televised live debate, America begins the second part of the process--the determination of winner and loser.

Guided by past experience, it can be expected that impressions recorded in snap polls and instant interviews with TV watchers will be refined as voters are bombarded by expert analysis and partisan “spin.” Somewhere along the way in the next 48 hours or so a lasting consensus will likely take shape as to who was helped and who was hurt.

Bush arrived in Winston-Salem first on Sunday. He went directly to Wake Forest University to check microphone and lighting levels. He joked with reporters on the short flight from Washington and even took 20 minutes out to go jogging in the afternoon--projecting nothing so much as a relaxed countenance.

Feeling of Tranquility

“I feel less strain than I did in a couple of . . . other debates. I know it’s as important probably as the convention speech, but a tranquility has come over me,” Bush told reporters. “That doesn’t mean the adrenaline is not going to flow or hasn’t already started,” he added.

Isn’t this the most important day of his political life, Bush was asked. “No. The second most,” he replied. “Election Day is the most important.”

Dukakis, accompanied by his large expanded family, was greeted by 300 supporters on his arrival in the gray fog of the afternoon. He was presented with bright-red boxing gloves and declared himself revved up. “The American people will benefit from this debate. It’s long overdue.”

Between 20 and 30 Democratic elected officials assembled as a massive on-the-scene team, fanning out to put the best “spin” on Dukakis’ performance. Among them were Sens. Barbara A. Mikulski of Maryland and Bill Bradley of New Jersey along with Arkansas Gov. Bill Clinton. Dukakis’ once-fired campaign manager John Sasso made his first out-of-town trip since being rehired earlier this month.

During his pre-debate microphone test, Dukakis recited the starting lineup of the Boston Red Sox baseball team from the first game he ever attended as a boy. He remembered all the players except one outfielder.

Panel of Journalists

The journalists doing the questioning during the debate were John Mashek of the Atlanta Constitution, Anne Groer of the Orlando Sentinel and Peter Jennings of ABC television, along with moderator Jim Lehrer of the Public Broadcasting System.

Through the numerous primary election debates earlier this year, various formats were tried. But the formula of using reporters to pose questions, rather than putting the candidates on stage one-on-one, seems to be the only format that both sides would agree to use.

Bush and Dukakis will meet again in Los Angeles Oct. 13 (or Oct. 14 if the baseball World Series runs to seven games) under sponsorship of the League of Women Voters. The format has not been settled but it is anticipated that it will be much like Sunday’s.

Contributing to this story were staff writers Sara Fritz, Josh Getlin, Melissa Healy, Doyle McManus, Tom Redburn and Robert Toth.